Unintentional and unnoticed sexism - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 19 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
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Unintentional and unnoticed sexism

This news story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49332640

Gave me pause for thought. Mostly on the subject of the VW ad. I reckon I would watch that (and probably have) without any issue even occurring to me. But when it is written out in such a plain way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by women aren't allowed to have fun
It showed a sleeping woman and a man in a tent on a sheer cliff face, two male astronauts floating in a space ship and a male para-athlete doing the long jump, before cutting to the final scene showing a woman sitting on a bench next to a pram.
It's a pretty stark difference, isn't it? I strongly suspect even the ad makers didn't realise what they'd done. Although their defence of "The woman with the pram is calm - so we're debunking the stereotype of a harrassed and stressed mother!" is rather weak!

The Philly one is a bit laughable too. Lets be progressive and have two fathers! And then lets have them be so inept that they lose their child...

I'm not sure how seriously I see these things being. But I look at my 8 year old daughter, and I look at the stereotypes that are already forced on her at school and elsewhere, and I think the VW one particularly is genuinely potentially part of a harmful influence. People talk about 'PC gone mad', but I reckon I can see the value in trying to stop this being the way people are unconsciously forced into the right boxes.

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(Post Link) post #2 of 19 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
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One little change - the test description isn't clear, so I looked for the ad myself. The first bit of description:
"It showed a sleeping woman and a man in a tent on a sheer cliff face"

The woman and the man are both in the tent on a cliff face. I had misinterpreted as it being two different scenes. So it's not a case of lots of adventurous men bookended by two boring women.

Does that change it enough? You could still argue that the only person not being adventurous is a woman. Perhaps not as clearcut though.
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You could also argue that having a baby is adventurous - "life's great adventure"

(and I speak as a non-parent).

Not saying I disagree with anything you've said though Bazza
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I think we have become too sensitive to stuff like this.

It is highly likely that no intention was made to upset anyone, but some people are determined to get upset at any small thing they can.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
I think we have become too sensitive to stuff like this.

It is highly likely that no intention was made to upset anyone, but some people are determined to get upset at any small thing they can.
I think you may be missing the point symon, in that it's not about upsetting people, but about giving positive role models to avoid inadvertently reducing the expectations of kids growing up today.
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When I saw the VW ad originally, some weeks ago, my immediate thoughts at the end were that it was meant to be so quiet the woman didn't notice it passing. Or it was so boring she couldn't be bothered looking up! And that the other activities were meant to reflect the supposed "dynamism" of the car rather than gender activities.

I may not be thinking critically enough about these ads.


Nonetheless, I do get irked by the "useless/helpless dad/husband/male" stereotypes which have persisted long after other gender/colour ones have largely stopped.
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It could have been a Dad with the baby someone would have complained, I really do wonder at times if these sorts of discussions happen in other countries or is it just in the UK,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza View Post
The Philly one is a bit laughable too. Lets be progressive and have two fathers! And then lets have them be so inept that they lose their child...

So, re-do the ad with a normal couple and you are being stereotypical. An older couple and you are being ageist and a lesbian couple and you are again saying a same sex couple are not fit to look after a child.


I suspect the 'point' of the advert is not to depict any group of people of any age/gender/sexual orientation as 'inept', rather to depict the cheese as incredibly distracting* so by focusing on "the couple" people are totally missing the point of the advert. It's a bit like watching "Avengers" bacause you want to see what wallpaper someone has. No matter what you do if someone has an axe to grind about something they will always have the ability to interpret it differently than the vast majority of people.

As for VW ad, three people complained. That's about 0.00000000476% of the UK population over 16 who think they know better than I do what I should watch and how I interpret it.





















*Full disclosure, not watched the ad so it may have gone in a totally different direction! In which case Mod-bear can delete this and I'll take my dried frog pills.

No 2 on the Git list

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Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
I think we have become too sensitive to stuff like this.

It is highly likely that no intention was made to upset anyone, but some people are determined to get upset at any small thing they can.
Agree that we are becoming far too sensitive. I watched the interview and the VW ad only received 3 complaints!!! I have a 7 year old daughter and of mixed race so her life going forward may be harder than some but there's little that can realistically be done with that and i seriously doubt the 2 banned ads would have affected her life. I'm not being a defeatist either but a realist and banning those ads is frightening, am thinking George Orwells 1984

Notice they didn't add one of the annoying claims ads to their list showing a husband and wife where the wife is depicted as smart and the husband weak! Bring back comedy ads like the Carling and Hamlet ones
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I had intended to put my response to the banning of these 2 adverts in the "Rant" section!

I have seen both adverts and never once did either strike me as gender stereotyping!

I found the 2 dad's putting their babies on the conveyor belt as amusing (kind of thing I might do if I had kids!). Couldn't tell you the product they were advertising at the time!

VW ad passed me by at it was for a VW Golf. I just saw the woman with the pram as someone who is at peace with herself and the world and would "enjoy" owning an electric Golf.

Hey, what do I know!

Surely though if only 3 people disagree with an advert, that's not enough people to warrant even an investigation let alone a ban. I think it was 128 for the other advert, hardly a public outcry! They should go and waste other peoples time!

I'm off to watch a Smash advert with stereotypical aliens in it!
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I don't feel very strongly about it. I certainly wouldn't have ever raised a complaint myself.
But, as I say, the proportion of my daughters schoolmates who believe emphatically that only men can do certain things and only women others gives me pause for thought.

I find the "PC gawn maaad" brigade who just want to either ignore it utterly or vilify anyone questioning it are either being disingenuous or naive. Is it a huge problem? Probably not. But is it something we could improve on?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
I think we have become too sensitive to stuff like this.

It is highly likely that no intention was made to upset anyone, but some people are determined to get upset at any small thing they can.
The only thing you will surely find if you go looking for it; offence.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithy View Post
So, re-do the ad with a normal couple and you are being stereotypical. An older couple and you are being ageist and a lesbian couple and you are again saying a same sex couple are not fit to look after a child.


I suspect the 'point' of the advert is not to depict any group of people of any age/gender/sexual orientation as 'inept', rather to depict the cheese as incredibly distracting* so by focusing on "the couple" people are totally missing the point of the advert. It's a bit like watching "Avengers" bacause you want to see what wallpaper someone has. No matter what you do if someone has an axe to grind about something they will always have the ability to interpret it differently than the vast majority of people.

As for VW ad, three people complained. That's about 0.00000000476% of the UK population over 16 who think they know better than I do what I should watch and how I interpret it.





*Full disclosure, not watched the ad so it may have gone in a totally different direction! In which case Mod-bear can delete this and I'll take my dried frog pills.

What about the old, black, quadraplegic, transdenderal, Jewish Muslim bender person of no known age, race, gender, religion or sexual orientation?

You can't have a million different people in every advert. Maybe the law is a bit **** (although that implies some kind of sexual prediliction which some readers might find offends their own ethical, moral, sexual or religious standards,....)

But, if someone becames offended, then that's *their* choice... I can't do anything about what other people choose. So they can F8ck off...


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The big problem is that "stereotyping" is bandied about as a heinous crime without anyone understanding what it means. (Yes, I know there are dictionary definitions but they include vague words like "unjustifiable.")

Generalisation is useful, indeed indispensible for science, understanding, fiction and comedy. Prejudice (acting on a pre-judgement of someone based on a category they belong to) is deplorable.

More women than men tend to look after children in prams. (That's a generalisation).
You're a woman, so your place is looking after a pram. (That's prejudice).
Someone sees a woman in an advert looking after a pram and shouts "stereotyping." (Thats borrox).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza View Post
I don't feel very strongly about it. I certainly wouldn't have ever raised a complaint myself.
But, as I say, the proportion of my daughters schoolmates who believe emphatically that only men can do certain things and only women others gives me pause for thought.

I find the "PC gawn maaad" brigade who just want to either ignore it utterly or vilify anyone questioning it are either being disingenuous or naive. Is it a huge problem? Probably not. But is it something we could improve on?
To be fair... only women can give birth.

Only men can be a Mullah, or leader of an autocratic government. Dunno if a woman could "do" dictator.. she'd come across as a dominatrix..

But at least both men and women can multi-task. Men multi-task when one man does more than one thing at the same time. Women multi-task by getting together with two of their friends for a gossip and eventually complete something that could have been done by one man in one third of the time...

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My 3 1/2 year old son is, and always has been, a boy. Since he was a person, he's had no interest in dolls and other stereotypical girly things, but is fascinated by wheels and engines and mechanisms. There's a reason for the stereotypes. Girls and boys are, oddly enough, on average, different.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by domble View Post
My 3 1/2 year old son is, and always has been, a boy. Since he was a person, he's had no interest in dolls and other stereotypical girly things, but is fascinated by wheels and engines and mechanisms. There's a reason for the stereotypes. Girls and boys are, oddly enough, on average, different.

dom.
Riiight.

So you don't think there's the slightest chance that this is due to nurture rather than nature? Or a combination of the two?
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In the unlikely event that the VW advert was viewed in absolute isolation, then yes it could be a problem. Males and females have many roles in life - one of which for some is being mum or dad - and many other ads show the wide variety of other roles they do play. While adverts shouldn’t only show what are deemed to be ‘established roles’, I’m not sure they should now pretend they suddenly don’t still exist.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domble View Post
My 3 1/2 year old son is, and always has been, a boy. Since he was a person, he's had no interest in dolls and other stereotypical girly things, but is fascinated by wheels and engines and mechanisms. There's a reason for the stereotypes. Girls and boys are, oddly enough, on average, different.

dom.
My 22yo daughter has been obsessed with cars since she was 2 or 3. My son is 17 and only began to show any interest in his teens. He was much more interested in clothes.

Girls and boys are different, as are girls and other girls, and boys and other boys.
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