Police chases - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Way Off Topic Topics in here are quite off topic but do stay within the rules...

 10Likes
  • 5 Post By keithyboy
  • 2 Post By Sterzo
  • 1 Post By 73GTVJim
  • 1 Post By Verbout
  • 1 Post By chrishendrix
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
Status: strongstablestrongst able
AO Platinum Member
 
keithyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cambodia
County: Phnom Penh
Posts: 13,927

Member car:

CRV/Jaaag

Police chases

I was reading the Guardian yesterday, as I often do being a leftie, snowflake, remoaner. Every few days, they publish a really long article called, imaginatively, the long read.

Last week they published one called Speed kills: are police chases out of control?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...ursuits-chases

It is quite long so I'll forgive you if you can't be arsed but it is very interesting. The question is whether the police should pursue at all costs and how you determine at all costs.

The article itself is a bit hysterical. It starts with a pregnant girl, which is relevant only because her boyfriend was killed in a car chase. A police car came up behind a Fiesta which was registered to a known scrote so they decided to pull him. When they hit the lights, the driver bolted. Various police cars became involved in the chase which ended a few minutes later when the driver of the Fiesta lost it and, in the ensuing carnage, was thrown clear of the car. A police driver then ran over him (by accident). As it turned out, the driver wasn't the known scrote but the pregnant lass' boyfriend who had bought the car earlier that day. The Guardian then comes over all pink and fluffy, telling us about the baby and his family and yada yada. The article is quite damning but there are so many unanswered questions.

Why did he run? If he was the expectant dad and hooker with a heart of gold we are led to believe, why didn't he just pull over like normal people do? After all, I have thus far successfully managed to avoid being killed in a police chase I instigated by not instigating any police chases. Perhaps it was because he only had a provisional, had some Bolivian marching powder in his system, and wasn't insured? Why wasn't he wearing a seatbelt? Could it be because he was planning to be out and running when he got chance? The very fact that he tried to get away tells everyone that something is not right with the driver or the car, or both. The police can't possibly know that his girlfriend is up the duff and anyway that should be at the forefront of his mind not theirs. Had the police decided not to chase, and the driver had run into a bus stop full of nuns, the story would no doubt be "Police had chance to stop death driver minutes before crash death nun bloodbath carnage".

The article then argues that it's all a bit unnecessary anyway because they could just go round to his house to pick him up later on. Because I'm sure his first act upon buying the car would have been to ensure that the seller filled in the V5C and got it in the post. And the car would almost certainly be sat there on the drive.

The article then goes on to talk about the problem of thieving little barstewards on stolen mopeds robbing people at knifepoint and the novel solution deployed by the Met of knocking the little effers off at low speed. Given a choice between some poor sod getting stabbed for his wallet or phone and some teenage waster getting a few scrapes and bruises and a night in the cells, I'm going with option B.

Any thoughts?

Auto Express - six issues for a quid. Offer must end soon (and then immediately start up again).

Free poor quality torch/T-cut/I luv my VW Polo sew-on badge
keithyboy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
(Post Link) post #2 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: Dreaming
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Orpington, Kent
Posts: 1,918

Member car:

Giulietta 150MA

Agree with all of the above.

The police must make quick judgements, often in very difficult circumstances. There's a risk that on occasion they'll make a wrong judgement; or that they make a sound judgement based on the available information, but it turns out later they've been misled. Fact is, we need a police force, and we need them to make judgements. Sometimes it won't turn out well and we need to accept that.

Some years ago police shot dead a young man in Battersea who had a cigarette lighter shaped as an imitation gun. There was outrage. Now, if you brandish something that looks like a gun, you shouldn't be surprised if people think it is a gun. And if you have an imitation gun, and you don't drop it when shouted at, the police shouldn't wait to see if you shoot them first.

Similarly, if you race away from a police car...
Hobson284 and r1200rt like this.
Sterzo is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Clay19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
County: -
Posts: 1,558
There’s health & safety guidelines that the police have to follow whilst chasing / pursuing
An inspector can, and often do call off the chase if it’s known as “ aggravated “ some officers choose to ignore higher orders and allow their ego’s to rule over any decision as well as putting the public at risk and just carry on the chase rather than let them just get away.
Before they went digital over analog I use to always listen to what they was up to on my scanner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Clay19 is offline  
(Post Link) post #4 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Manzanares El Real
County: Madrid
Posts: 18
Its swings and roundabouts really, you can say the guy ran off becuase he wasnt complying with the law and in this case it was only himself he caused injury to, but on the other hand if the police had left him alone noted his registraion did the nessary checks and then payed him a visit at home then he would still be alive, again if the police pursued him thus putting him in a state of panic and in his haste to get away he hits another car and kills the innocent people inside then you could argue was it really worth it?

I understand that making a snap decision as a policeman as to wether it was worth it or not is a hard thing to do but it also comes down to character and ego. some officers will see that a chase is becoming more and more dangerous but will still choose to persue due to the fact they dont want to lose said perp and sense sensibility goes out the window due to inflation of ego. but on the other hand you also have officers who will asses the situation and make the hard dicision to abondon said chase due to the importance of public safety.

every case is different but i wouldnt agree as to persue someone putting the public at risk for a low risk crime such as no insurance or lack of driving license (im not saying that its ok to do these things) but with registration information and other such checks can put them into a position of dealing with it in a different way, address checks, controlled blocking as to stop a persuit before it even starts etc, will reduce risk and reduce casualtys.
Judge420 is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: still excited(shoudn't be)
AO Gold Member
 
ARnovice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The land of burning...
County: Berkshire
Posts: 8,933
keithyboy, are you sure you are leftie and a snoflake? you sound more like extreme right wing heartless Nazi

Just kidding of course. You talk sense. Mass media stopped doing this long time ago. The guy was either an idiot or a criminal, I am not sure i can find other reasons to run away from a police car.

(unless a guy was black and it was happeening in US. They would've killed him anyway)
ARnovice is offline  
(Post Link) post #6 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Harvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United Kingdom
County: Devon
Posts: 3,924

Member car:

Laguna, Elgrand

Public safety is at the front of my mind.
Not too bothered about the lives of criminals in all honesty (ooh, but it's society that's failed them. Blah, blah, blah) but if one of my own was killed on the pavement as a result of a botched chase......
I watch on occasion shows like traffic cops and do think they make half hearted attempts to stop cars (Tpac with enough room to get a oil tanker through) and I wonder if it's for TV or they really do like a chase to brighten their day up.
Harvo is offline  
(Post Link) post #7 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: Winning small victories
AO Platinum Member
 
73GTVJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater Manchester
Posts: 24,410
You weren't kidding about it being a long read, were you?

It's an interesting, well-written and largely balanced piece.

If we step outside of the movingly tragic individual stories and their sad fall-out, we are left with the question of whether, when and how far should a chase go?
I find myself leaning strongly towards the typically indecisive, liberal answer of "its depends".

It depends on "proportionality" and the article mentions obvious cases such as violent criminals or terrorists in flight having to be chased there and then versus a full blown, life-threatening careen down side streets to catch some kid with no MOT or a stolen 12 year old car worth a few hundred quid. Yes, they may well have an uninsured, unroadworthy car that might cause an accident but do they need to precipitate it and risk more collateral damage or even death, be it the driver or a by-stander? Probably not. But then how do they know what a driver's reaction is going to be until they make the signal?

Of course, it would be easier if they just pulled over like most of us would but then you have fear and panic, bravado, machismo, ego and hot-headed competitiveness and often a big old dose of blind stupidity which is a powerful mix that will nearly always trump cool reason in the heat of the moment.


Ultimately, I think the police are trying to do the right thing in 99.99% of cases and support the view the chased driver should have just pulled over. If there's any way to get controllers to be more proactive in downgrading the need to chase it might be better than relying on fragmented risk descriptions from the man in hot pursuit. Save the Hollywood sequences for when it's a murderer or known terrorist for me. There's enough CCTV and other methods available for the petty criminal.
kevruis likes this.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Jan 2019 New Giulia Veloce Misano Blue
2008-15 New 159Ti experience: overwhelmingly positive. Reliable and fun over nearly 100k.
2015-18 147 1.6TS runaround
6/9/12 - 15 New Mito 135MA Distinctive - 100% reliable 37k
73GTVJim is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Manzanares El Real
County: Madrid
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73GTVJim View Post
You weren't kidding about it being a long read, were you?

It's an interesting, well-written and largely balanced piece.

If we step outside of the movingly tragic individual stories and their sad fall-out, we are left with the question of whether, when and how far should a chase go?
I find myself leaning strongly towards the typically indecisive, liberal answer of "its depends".

It depends on "proportionality" and the article mentions obvious cases such as violent criminals or terrorists in flight having to be chased there and then versus a full blown, life-threatening careen down side streets to catch some kid with no MOT or a stolen 12 year old car worth a few hundred quid. Yes, they may well have an uninsured, unroadworthy car that might cause an accident but do they need to precipitate it and risk more collateral damage or even death, be it the driver or a by-stander? Probably not. But then how do they know what a driver's reaction is going to be until they make the signal?

Of course, it would be easier if they just pulled over like most of us would but then you have fear and panic, bravado, machismo, ego and hot-headed competitiveness and often a big old dose of blind stupidity which is a powerful mix that will nearly always trump cool reason in the heat of the moment.


Ultimately, I think the police are trying to do the right thing in 99.99% of cases and support the view the chased driver should have just pulled over. If there's any way to get controllers to be more proactive in downgrading the need to chase it might be better than relying on fragmented risk descriptions from the man in hot pursuit. Save the Hollywood sequences for when it's a murderer or known terrorist for me. There's enough CCTV and other methods available for the petty criminal.
Completley agree!
Judge420 is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 17 Old 1 Week Ago
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ireland
County: Dublin
Posts: 413

Member car:

Alfa 159 1.9 JTS

It's an age old problem this one...basically most people harbour disdain and even hatred for any form of law enforcement, call them "pigs" and whatnot, thinks they're "corrupt" and "abuse power", and that they should "mind their business"...when said individuals have no need for law enforcement.

The moment they are affected by crime it's a chorus of "POLICE! SAVE ME!", "why are the Police doing NOTHING!" and call law enforcement to be allowed using the harshest, most violent and inhumane methods.
H3llR4iser is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,739
People only try and get away from the police because they NEED to get away from the police, whether thats because they are not the car owner, not insured, drunk, high, carrying drugs/guns, have a body in the boot etc. If the police routinely didn't pursue then that would be even more reason for people not to stop.
Pud237 is offline  
Status: Enjoying the mid-life Crisis
AO Member
 
Angoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United Kingdom
County: Essex
Posts: 480

Member car:

Brera S

I have very mixed feelings about police drivers and driving, not helped by programs like Police Interceptors. I used to have the utmost respect for the drivers who were trained to persue other drivers, but then their job was easier. Then came cutbacks in training and the fact a Golf GTi or countless similar cars made the prospect of getting away more likely. Oh, and the fact I nearly had a head-on with a police car overtaking on a bend a few years ago.
Angoose is offline  
Status: -
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,199

Member car:

1973 Spider 2000

In contrast, here's a U.S. police stop.
Quote:

Guthrie police had quite the surprise when they pulled over a car with an expired tag – the car turned out to be stolen, and police said they found a canister of radioactive uranium, a rattlesnake, and an open bottle of Kentucky Deluxe whiskey.
Also, a gun.

(Yes, I realize it's not exactly on topic, but I needed to share.)
Toronto Spider is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Nellytheroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United Kingdom
County: Norfolk
Posts: 1,890
Garage
Some things are easy to ‘prove’ statistically but others are almost impossible to prove. You can state what percentage of high speed pursuits end in an arrest or a conviction or death/injury to the criminal or indeed collateral damage/injury. What you can’t prove is what further crimes the criminal mentioned in the original article could have gone on to commit and how many people could have been injured or worse as a result. What you can’t prove is the deterrent effect of criminals knowing that they will be chased and caught rather than allowed to break the law with impunity because of ‘health & safety’ and ‘human rights’. Ultimately the criminal in the article was the architect of his own demise.

2001 GTV Twin Spark - Aerokit, teledials, Ragazzon quads, MTEC discs, DS Performance pads
2000 Spider Twin Spark - 17” multispokes, colour matched mirrors, OEM luggage rack, Ultra Racing strut brace, Fox quads, Zender fuel flap cover
Nellytheroc is offline  
Status: She's happy to pootle
AO Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: United Kingdom
County: Surrey
Posts: 16,475
Always torn on this one. Chasing/Stopping a car can result in a big time crook being nabbed. But a chase can also result in an innocent citizen (pedestrian, cyclist, driver) being injured or killed.

If it was your wallet nicked, you’d want plod chasing them; but you wouldn’t want plod crashing into you when chasing after someone else’s wallet.

To justify chases, Plod would probably say that if you were to do some crude maths, more crims get caught during them than innocent folks get hurt.

If you’re gonna make an omelette...

A driver is always faithful to a car that's always faithful to its driver.

Sometimes in the darkest hour, love comes shining through.
Then it doesn't seem so far from me to you.
Scudetto is offline  
Status: Meh....
AO Platinum Member
 
Verbout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Yorkshire
Posts: 12,184
Garage

Member car:

Lexus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay19 View Post
There’s health & safety guidelines.
Police chases are controlled by ACPO guidelines, or whatever new acronym they are known by now. The guidelines may be similar to H&S, I don’t know, but they are the controlling rules.

Secondly, the control room supervisor, possibly a civilian, controls the chase/pursuit/follow, not the officers on the ground. This supervisor asks for road conditions, pedestrian density, weather conditions and allows or calls off the pursuits. I’ve been stopped from pursuing many times by a civilian operator. It’s maddening but they control the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARnovice View Post
The guy was either an idiot or a criminal, I am not sure i can find other reasons to run away
I’m sure the deceased family will find comfort in those words.

As someone mentioned, it depends. It depends on many factors.

But please remember police have killed considerable more civilians since 2004 than terrorists have in the past 30 years. I believe it runs into the hundreds of people killed in RTAs, many die in police custody, dozens have been shot while unarmed, and many more suicides due to wrongful/spiteful/illegal arrests or mental health/alcohol/drugs issues.

I believe the figure since 2004 is nearly 2000 people killed by police.

West Yorkshire Police killed 3 civilians in road traffic accidents in January alone this year, one was one of their own, an off duty PCSO.
chrishendrix likes this.

Garry

DISCLAIMER
Apologies for spelling mistakes, bad grammar and misplaced, or even lack of apostrophes.

TSR 2 Test Flight

Last edited by Verbout; 1 Week Ago at 21:06.
Verbout is offline  
Status: -
AO Gold Member
 
chrishendrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Posts: 10,766
Over many years I have noticed the surprising regularity of news reports of innocent bystanders being hit by a Police car involved in a chase.
Whenever I hear a siren when out on my push bike, I get on the pavement and try to put a large solid obstruction such as a tree between me and the carriageway until the hazard has passed.
Verbout likes this.
chrishendrix is offline  
Status: Meh....
AO Platinum Member
 
Verbout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Yorkshire
Posts: 12,184
Garage

Member car:

Lexus

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrishendrix View Post
Over many years I have noticed the surprising regularity of news reports of innocent bystanders being hit by a Police car involved in a chase.
Whenever I hear a siren when out on my push bike, I get on the pavement and try to put a large solid obstruction such as a tree between me and the carriageway until the hazard has passed.
That’s exactly what they are, a hazard.

Any contact with police is a hazard, it’s not good for your health, more so if they’re plastic police.

The safest time to be out and about is during their meal breaks or when they’re parked up at McDonald’s.
Verbout is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Misc Lounges > Community Discussions > Way Off Topic

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome