What is the point of the Emergency Services? - Alfa Romeo Forum
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What is the point of the Emergency Services?

We're hearing the paramedics were stopped from treating casualties at the Westminster Bridge attack when the offender had been shot some minutes after the incident. The situation wasn't safe. Major incident scenes are not safe. �� A chief police officer hid in his chauffeur driven car, scared.

The Manchester Arena bombing. The firebrigade were again told not to attend by their bosses because the situation wasn't safe and they weren't covered by their insurance. Again, Major incident scenes are not safe.

The firebrigade again didn't put out the initial fire at Grenfell Towers caused by a domestic appliance, then made a pig's ear of rescuing the people. They hadn't been trained for such an eventuality, their boss said at the inquiry.

I had personal dealings with a domestic incident where a man mountain had assaulted his wife, confronted us with a bowie knife and had been disarmed. The paramedics wouldn't go in the house to treat the lady until he was removed, he was cuffed, on the floor but shouting abuse that scared the paramedic who stated, " I don't have to work in these conditions"

Yes you do,.

You are an emergency service, you have to, to a certain extent, ignore the dangers and treat people in emergency situations. You have to go to the scene,. You have to go into dangerous situations and do the job the taxpayers expect of you. They have paid for your expensive training. They pay you a salary to serve them 24/7 in any situation.

Get on with it. Grow a pair.

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There's no point bunging expensively trained ambulance crew (never mind other human beings) into situations just for them to end up severely injured or indeed killed is there? Slightly different with firefighters and the police though as it's the nature of the job.


Though if the attacker is cuffed or otherwise detained then yes, get on with it.
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Originally Posted by Harvo View Post
There's no point bunging expensively trained ambulance crew (never mind other human beings) into situations just for them to end up severely injured or indeed killed is there? Slightly different with firefighters and the police though as it's the nature of the job.


Though if the attacker is cuffed or otherwise detained then yes, get on with it.
What if he’s dead as at Westminster Bridge, and blown to bits as at Manchester Arena. They have a lawful and moral duty to help in emergencies. It’s the public that help the casualties in these circumstances, no one drags them out of the scene.
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There's protocol in these situations as you know. Send plod in and secure then ambulance after to mop up.
I agree that once it's safe for the crew to go then they should do their duty and I'm sure in most cases that's the norm. You just can't throw a life saver in to lose their life. A tad pointless. And coppers are 2 a penny.......
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You both have valid points.

We [Ambulance] are not trained, or given protective clothing to deal with anyone that has guns or knives.

That doesn't stop me from going to people who are armed and in psychosis/****ed-up/drugged-up and feeling violent.

We are stopped from attending immediate threats from Major incidents, by the Gold Commanders in charge.

I know, very well, our first person on scene at the Manchester Bombing, I also remember people going way above and beyond during the Derek Bird shootings.

We are not afraid to go into a war zone.

But we are prevented from doing so, for good reason.

Last edited by stan laurel; 4 Weeks Ago at 21:12.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbout View Post
We're hearing the paramedics were stopped from treating casualties at the Westminster Bridge attack when the offender had been shot some minutes after the incident. The situation wasn't safe. Major incident scenes are not safe. �� A chief police officer hid in his chauffeur driven car, scared.

The Manchester Arena bombing. The firebrigade were again told not to attend by their bosses because the situation wasn't safe and they weren't covered by their insurance. Again, Major incident scenes are not safe.

The firebrigade again didn't put out the initial fire at Grenfell Towers caused by a domestic appliance, then made a pig's ear of rescuing the people. They hadn't been trained for such an eventuality, their boss said at the inquiry.

I had personal dealings with a domestic incident where a man mountain had assaulted his wife, confronted us with a bowie knife and had been disarmed. The paramedics wouldn't go in the house to treat the lady until he was removed, he was cuffed, on the floor but shouting abuse that scared the paramedic who stated, " I don't have to work in these conditions"

Yes you do,.

You are an emergency service, you have to, to a certain extent, ignore the dangers and treat people in emergency situations. You have to go to the scene,. You have to go into dangerous situations and do the job the taxpayers expect of you. They have paid for your expensive training. They pay you a salary to serve them 24/7 in any situation.

Get on with it. Grow a pair.
Why is it the fault of the services themselves?

Did the police officer have a stab vest on?

How about the government funds the fire brigade to allow them to train to deal with situations like Grenfell, or ensures that the quality of fireproof cladding used, adheres to higher standards, or ensures that more rigourous design regulations are applied to high rise buildings that have outdated and inadequate safety standards?

Or is your plan to get rid of the fire brigade because they can only attend non major incidents and use the army instead?

Alternatively let's all just "Grow a pair", as apparently that solves everything
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbout View Post
What if he’s dead as at Westminster Bridge, and blown to bits as at Manchester Arena. They have a lawful and moral duty to help in emergencies. It’s the public that help the casualties in these circumstances, no one drags them out of the scene.
What if his accomplice was waiting for the crowd of onlookers and emergency services to form in order to set off the secondary device?

It doesn't seem out of order to secure the area.
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Originally Posted by bazza View Post
What if his accomplice was waiting for the crowd of onlookers and emergency services to form in order to set off the secondary device?

It doesn't seem out of order to secure the area.
In the meantime, people are bleeding to death... I dunno, its a tough one ain't it? I can see both sides.

Also I feel like as a member of the public, in that sort of situation, I'd like to think I would do what I could to help as opposed to legging it. But as an employee miles away getting blue-lighted in, I'd be thinking 'sod going into this for twenty-odd grand a year, get the site secure first'.
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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
In the meantime, people are bleeding to death... I dunno, its a tough one ain't it? I can see both sides.

Also I feel like as a member of the public, in that sort of situation, I'd like to think I would do what I could to help as opposed to legging it. But as an employee miles away getting blue-lighted in, I'd be thinking 'sod going into this for twenty-odd grand a year, get the site secure first'.
It's not about money.

If it was, you wouldn't have half the staff in any of the health services.

I know Paddy, who was the Advanced Paramedic who the police sent in to assess the scene at the MEN Arena. He was ****ting himself, whlst discovering the atrocities that laid before him. It was on his word that we were able to get in and save some of those that would have otherwise perished.

I wasn't there that night, I was off duty and had had literally a couple of pints. When I saw what was happening, I phoned in, but wasn't needed/required.

I believe I was one of many hundreds of staff that phoned in and offered their services.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbout View Post
You are an emergency service, you have to, to a certain extent, ignore the dangers and treat people in emergency situations. You have to go to the scene,. You have to go into dangerous situations and do the job the taxpayers expect of you. They have paid for your expensive training. They pay you a salary to serve them 24/7 in any situation.

Get on with it. Grow a pair.
I think you're being a bit harsh there. Police are equipped and trained to go into more challenging situations, fire fighters and paramedics not so much.
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It’s a generational thing, driven by the fact that the modern world lives on process.

Simple example from last year. One of my mother’s friends was burgled, and they arrived back at the house with her to find the front door pried open. My mother and her friends thought nothing of it and were about to walk into the house to see what had been nicked, but their (adult) children stopped them, worried that a burglar might still be in there. The police were called. A PCSO turned up, but was similarly nervous about going into the house on their own. Mother is an impatient soul at the best of times, and had had enough and just waked up the path to the house. There was a brief “get out of my bloody way” interaction with the PCSO, she went in …. and 5 minutes later re-appeared at the front door saying no one was there and that the kettle was on.

So 2 adult children and a PCSO were cowering outside the house and the 88 year old went in and checked it out. But the 88 year old grew up in a world where you had to evaluate risk on a constant basis and when you got it wrong, it hurt. When she went for a walk as a child, the biggest risk was being eaten by a tiger (I am not joking, one of her friends was eaten). If something looked dangerous, it probably was, and you acted accordingly – if you didn’t, you died. My kids are growing up in a world where there is no danger, everything is guarded, railed off, fenced off.

A good friend of mine (sadly now deceased) was an ambulance driver in the 60s and 70s. He had a lot of stories, the one that made the biggest impression on me was him describing the Staines air crash. He was the second or third wagon on site, thought he was attending a fire, and was surprised to be wading about in kerosene looking for bodies. Once they’d realised there were no survivors, they spent the night ferrying bodies to a mortuary in Slough (I think). He got the day off as he’d been working all night, and was back on shift the following day. Not a big deal for him.

It’s a hard balance to strike – if you let people make decisions, then some of them will get hurt, and their bosses will take the heat. If you don’t let them make decisions, then you’re accused of being obsessed with health and safety, and the people you’re meant to be looking after get hurt. Eventually you end up with a load of policeman looking on while a someone drowns in a duck pond because they aren’t allowed to swim.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza View Post
What if his accomplice was waiting for the crowd of onlookers and emergency services to form in order to set off the secondary device?

It doesn't seem out of order to secure the area.
Scenes are secured almost immediately on a major incident, the priorities are: saving life and property. The crime scene is secondary. That’s why you see police moving people away almost straight away.

I’ll get back to answer Stan and Starkers later.


What if? REALLY?



“Gold Commander here, we can’t attend this incident, what if we stub our toe, stand down until tomorrow, we’ll shovel up the body parts and swill away the blood”

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I think some of the headlines spun out of the London Bridge attack are out of order, there was a lot of confusion that day, and from what I gather the police and emergency services got there fast, why does the focus always have to be on the negative and not stories of those that helped that day.
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Originally Posted by AlfaDrivingFan View Post
I think you're being a bit harsh there. Police are equipped and trained to go into more challenging situations, fire fighters and paramedics not so much.
I don’t agree, some firefighters and paramedics are trained to give medical attention to save lives, police are trained in first aid.

Most of the people, the public, have no training but stay to help others without a second thought, they don’t think “What if”
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I think some of the headlines spun out of the London Bridge attack are out of order, there was a lot of confusion that day, and from what I gather the police and emergency services got there fast, why does the focus always have to be on the negative and not stories of those that helped that day.
The negative is always examined, mostly at the enquiry/coroners court afterwards.

You have to examine the negative to get it right next time.
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Originally Posted by Verbout View Post

I had personal dealings with a domestic incident where a man mountain had assaulted his wife, confronted us with a bowie knife and had been disarmed. The paramedics wouldn't go in the house to treat the lady until he was removed, he was cuffed, on the floor but shouting abuse that scared the paramedic who stated, " I don't have to work in these conditions"
By the way, this person does not deserve their title or belong in the job.
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Not emergency services, but I have a lot of motorsport marshalling experience, so working in a more controlled environment.

It's always impressed on marshals that your safety comes first, then your partner, then the driver & that by taking unnecessary risks you can become part of the incident. Having a fully-equipped rescue unit with a paramedic or doctor on board on a 90-second response time is a good situation to be in.

I have mixed feelings about the public getting involved in RTCs. It may the heroic thing to do, dragging a driver out of a crashed car, but it's also a good way of exacerbating a c-spine injury.

The bottom line for me is that, professional or amateur, you need to assess the risk & do everything within within your abilities, but not beyond.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
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Also, The Ambulance Service is not an emergency service - they are an Essential Service - https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...rgency-service

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Last edited by stan laurel; 3 Weeks Ago at 17:21.
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All valid arguments.

That’s why the question was posed.
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Originally Posted by stan laurel View Post
Also, The Ambulance Service is not an emergency service - they are an Essential Service - https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...rgency-service

!!!
And that is the exact thing I’d expect the head of “An Essential Service” to spout at an inquest or inquiry to justify his services inaction, adding:

“Our condolences to all families and friends who lost their loved ones in this tragedy. We take away from this valuable lessons that I think everyone will learn from” 😜
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