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(Post Link) post #1 of 48 Old 09-11-15 Thread Starter
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jtdm - Ways to increase EGT

Hello Guys,

i am a little curious about egt.
My DPF needs about 600C to regenerate.
The car only reaches about 240C during motorway cruising and well below 200 in town. In other words i lack about 360C Plus. The stock software overfuels the engine to reach that egt during regeneration.

This causes a few problems:
- massive oil degeneration
- oil thinning with diesel as the oil level raises

So i thought about this and wonder if it is possible to raise temps in any other way?

- could i cut boost during regeneration to lower afr?
- does the ecu allow this? does it contain different fuel and boost map for the regen cycle?
- is there any another way to increase egt, like alter soi and eio? I wouldn't mind loosing 50hp or so during regeneration....


i hope you guys can give me a little input on that.


btw: the car runs a tribesman map

Selling a Brembo Upgrade for 156's, Project Mu Pads (New) and fitting brake lines (new).

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Yes ECU allows that and all that is already done in stock ECU...

Nothing to gain there.
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Push the pedal to the metal and you have high egt for passive Regeneration (350C to 500C)
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funny you should ask about ways to regen a dpf...how about using some propane!

I'm actually not kidding, you could have dpf in place with bypass exhaust valves for those "top speed" runs (there's a sketch I did of this in mythread somewhere lol). Regen it with motorway speeds and the propane nozzle directed at it in the exhaust, only needs to be on for 5-10mins every 2-300miles, have a small tank in the boot...an electric nos bottle valve on the propane bottle and spark ignition widget to light the propane...you get the picture.

I could go on...but...some people think I'm mad!
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Hey TribesMan,

But if stock rom would cut boost shouldn't i notice that in a lack in power?

There is nothing noticable except an incredible high fuel consumption (talkin +10Liters at 50kph....) and a verry rugh idle.

I used exhauat wrap (ceramic) to wrap the dpf to shorten heat up times, but it seems the ecu does not account for anything.

It takes alwasy 700sec. No matter -10 or +30 degree ambient.... i alsow found a product simmlar like the dpf addition on the psa cars wich can be mixed to the fuel directly (can't do that with adblue) this reduces ignition temperature of the soot to about 450 degrees. Coming from 600 that's quite a lot energy to save....

I wonder if it would be possible to alter the target dpf temperture on that map (shorten heat up sequence) and monitor dpf regen behavior. I can use multiscan for monitoring dpf clogging....

I know it's not exactly a tuning kinda thing, but if the car burns less fuel during regen, i can burn more fuel during driving....so i can driver longer faster wich would improve laptimes


As to the pedal on metal kind of thing.
It is impossible to do that in town....to much power.... to bad suspension....
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@jbsmith

Actually i thought more about optimization of things already there..... if using your method i could alsow inject adblue with a small nozzle directly in front of the dpf....

Alsow propane.... are you seriouse?
Wouldn't that burn the cat, melting it?
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Quote:
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@jbsmith

Actually i thought more about optimization of things already there..... if using your method i could alsow inject adblue with a small nozzle directly in front of the dpf....

Alsow propane.... are you seriouse?
Wouldn't that burn the cat, melting it?
lol some experimentation would be needed.
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As to the pedal on metal kind of thing.
It is impossible to do that in town....to much power.... to bad suspension....
Diesel with DPF is not made for city driving. Remove the DPF or buy a gasoline car

Our Renault Espace 2.0 dci has also a DPF and my wife drives only short distances. At the Moment it works fine but when the dpf makes trouble, i will remove it.

With a good software, no one will notice that (TV in germany).
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Removing the DPF no:
it's illegal. I don't intend to do that just jet - maybe if i need a new exhaust sometime....
besides a straight pipe wouldn't be exactly "stealthy" one would need an extra silencer or something in place to overcome drone.... and noise, this would involve quite some money.... and you'll need someone to do it (as i can not weld anything....).


Does anyone know if it's possible to reduce target Temperture in the ECU? So it won't heat the thing up to 600C if only 500 are needed to ignite the soot?
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To says it's illegal is not right. Here our last car - BMW E91 320d build 2006 => DPF removed with positive TV inspection.

Removing: DPF/Partikelfilter 318d/320d M47 entfernen [mit TV] [Anleitung] - Werkstattecke & Einbau Tipps & Tricks - BMW E90 E91 E92 E93 Forum
Documents: http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/B...cheinigung.pdf

And it is still cleaner than any VW
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To says it's illegal is not right. Here our last car - BMW E91 320d build 2006 => DPF removed with positive TV inspection.

Removing: DPF/Partikelfilter 318d/320d M47 entfernen [mit TV] [Anleitung] - Werkstattecke & Einbau Tipps & Tricks - BMW E90 E91 E92 E93 Forum
Documents: http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/B...cheinigung.pdf

And it is still cleaner than any VW
It worked because your BMW is from 2006, hence pre-euro V. Since Sept/2009, its mandatory and reason to fail at MOT.
 
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besides a straight pipe wouldn't be exactly "stealthy" one would need an extra silencer or something in place to overcome drone.... and noise, this would involve quite some money.... and you'll need someone to do it (as i can not weld anything....).


Does anyone know if it's possible to reduce target Temperture in the ECU? So it won't heat the thing up to 600C if only 500 are needed to ignite the soot?

Loads of us in the UK have straight through pipes or just cored our DPF ( our annual legal inspection requires them to 'see' the DPF ). It makes no difference to noise, you still have the back box in place.

Blankng the EGR will increase temperatures ( though nothing like the temps needed), maybe 10-20c, it will also reduce spot production .

Perhaps insulating the DPF could help increase temperature?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Sheep View Post
Hello Guys,

i am a little curious about egt.
My DPF needs about 600C to regenerate.
The car only reaches about 240C during motorway cruising and well below 200 in town. In other words i lack about 360C Plus. The stock software overfuels the engine to reach that egt during regeneration.

This causes a few problems:
- massive oil degeneration
- oil thinning with diesel as the oil level raises

So i thought about this and wonder if it is possible to raise temps in any other way?

- could i cut boost during regeneration to lower afr?
- does the ecu allow this? does it contain different fuel and boost map for the regen cycle?
- is there any another way to increase egt, like alter soi and eio? I wouldn't mind loosing 50hp or so during regeneration....

like already said, the ecu does all that already. It's someof the telltale signs a regen is in process.

I would concentrate on avoiding active regens, they will happen regardless of soot levels given enough miles. Look at a fixitsan dongle, which will reset the mileage counter regularly so you would only get regens due to backpressure.

Which product are you using exactly to reduce the combustion temperature of the soot? Is it even worth it, the real Eolys isn't cheap and it takes about half a litre of diesel to perform an active regen. Is everything regarding fuel injection equipment in tip top shape? Don't make more soot than you have to.

Bear in mind the exhaust gasses get hotter after the catalyst aswell...
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Hey,

What you mean avoid active regens? So far the regen starts as soon as backpressure is to high.... you'll notice a regen is due because the engine will feel verry sluggish shortly prior (revs slow, car feels heavyer)...

Injection seems fine - smooth idle, injector correction values are low.
EGR is disabled (not closed).

The car will do 250kph on speedo (wich is hell dangerous on that suspension, roughly 242kph gps).

Average regeneration takes 600seconds according to ecu. The DPF is insolated with DEI Titanium exhaust wrap. I will monitor egt's tgis week as i'm going to do a 600km motorway trip.
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high pressure is just 1 trigger, there's also a mileage limit (depending on usage)
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To regenate I tried several so called DPF cleaners. All without noticeable effect.

Since I encounter nearly daily traffic jams and total stopts, I found two tricks to avoid DPF congestion that reduce fuel consumption:
1. stop the engine instead of idle revs during longer stops (f.i. before red lights)
2. give several short turbo boosts when possible to regen the DPF during every ride ( f.i. in third or fourth gear)

Fuel consumption went down from 8L/100 km to 7.1L/km and the engine runs better than before.
Idle revs have the most negative effect i.m.o.
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@Paparico

thanks for your input

First of all.
Even short Turbo "boost" runs as you describe will not be enough to reach high enough EGT to burn soot in the DPF.
As i told you the car will run at about 120C DPF temps during 120kp/h - if you accelerate shortly to say 150kp/h egt won't crack 400C.... 500C would be needed to burn soot.
A short in town run (like a sprint from one stoplight to another) will not nearly generate the heat required.


But i alsow noticed something.

1: if on motorway use cruisecontrol to accelerate - while it takes longer i do have the imagination that the engine will run leaner with it - generate less soot during acceleration - i observed that this alone can increase range between regen from 650 to nearly 800km (Motorway, not going faster than 150kp/h).

2: clean the intake - getting rid of the EGR soot - helps the engine breath more "clean" air // closing the EGR of after that does help too - i know people are a little uncertain about that but i used it on my car as i bouth it (had 120k km) and while it was a dirty mess (used the Liqui Moly stuff) the car run way way better after that was done. If idle revs have the most negative effect i think it's your EGR-Valve open at that situation recirculating exhaust gases to the intake.... combustion will suffer from that quite a lot. (don't have the EGR-"Problem" anymore).

3: Since about 3000km i'm testing liqui moly 5123 "Diesel Particle Filter Protection", the product claims to reduce ignition temperture of the soot, alowing for faster regeneration.

Observations (number 3):
I don't know if the claim is correct or not but, I noticed the distance between regenerations went up from ~650-700km to ~1000km, however; the regeneration time remains the same (i guess it's ECU controlled somewhere to take at least xx minutes).
Maybe (just gessing) the DPF will burn more of the soot during regeneration as, it's easyer to ignite, so it takes longer for it to get full again. I'll monitor what happens after my bottle is empty... advertised mix is 200ml to 60l of diesel, i used it every second fill up.

It's not realy cheap but, the worst thing you can have is a DPF regeneration starting 2 minutes befor you reach your destination.... while that still can happen, it will only happen once every two or even three weeks now, befor if i was "lucky" it could happen every week....


best regards to all DPF hampered.


oh and btw:
consumption is ok sometwhing around 6 - 7l per 100 including verry verry short city driving (3km) and fast to verry fast Autboahn driving (150-170, 240...). I can't complain - aerodynamics are way better on the delta compared with the 159 (sadly, i realy realy wanted one... but .... they used Diesel like others gasolline...)
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you could buy the proper eolys powerflex refills (about 40 euro per litre) and you'd need 1ml per 10 litres of fuel. This is the latest generation of the exact aditive PSA uses.

at 5-6ml per tank, the cost is insignificant, around 0.20 euro.

I'm not using this yet, but I get fairly long distance betwen regens as it is. 6-700 km for 100% urban use, and up to 2300 km for out of town use. Never tried pure autobahn/motorway use, I don't use the motorway if I can help it when going on vacation.

for my use now in winter and urban, I get 6 l/100 km, but for the occasional longer trip this can drop to 3.6 l/100 km... last vacation it was 5.5 l/ 100 km over 4000km including a 2 hour drive in 1st and 2nd gear in a ntures reserve. And AC on full blast 80% of the time.... 5 people on board, boot full

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Quote:
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besides a straight pipe wouldn't be exactly "stealthy" one would need an extra silencer or something in place to overcome drone.... and noise, this would involve quite some money.... and you'll need someone to do it (as i can not weld anything....).


?
Incorrect. Trust me, it aint as you have described with a straight pipe
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you could buy the proper eolys powerflex refills (about 40 euro per litre) and you'd need 1ml per 10 litres of fuel. This is the latest generation of the exact aditive PSA uses.

at 5-6ml per tank, the cost is insignificant, around 0.20 euro.

I'm not using this yet, but I get fairly long distance betwen regens as it is. 6-700 km for 100% urban use, and up to 2300 km for out of town use. Never tried pure autobahn/motorway use, I don't use the motorway if I can help it when going on vacation.

for my use now in winter and urban, I get 6 l/100 km, but for the occasional longer trip this can drop to 3.6 l/100 km... last vacation it was 5.5 l/ 100 km over 4000km including a 2 hour drive in 1st and 2nd gear in a ntures reserve. And AC on full blast 80% of the time.... 5 people on board, boot full

that sounds to good to be true...
what car and engine?

2300KM between regeneration? Impossible in the Delta...
Could it be that this DPF is bigger in Volume so it can store more soot before clogging?
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giulietta 2.0 jtdm-2 bought new...

the dpf is close coupled (in the engine bay right after the turbo), which might not be the case on the Delta. if anything the dpf is smaller.
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ah i see - i guess the DPF on the guilietta is much hotter in normal driving that on the Delta.
Mine is blow the car - where the main cat used to be on older cars.... the twinTurbo setup does most likely use to much space to cramp the DPF in there....

EDIT:
and your car is new ^^ mine just cracked 200k km

Side-question:
what's your oppinion on the new Seats in the Guilietta? I test drove the pre-facelift model with 170bhp engine (2.0 JTDM) and the seats were not up to par with the great suspension (leather...nearly no side support on those). > Was one of the reasons not to buy a Giulietta
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I have a pre-facelift model aswell. No issues here with seat support. I've got 58k on her now.
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https://www.dieselnet.com/papers/9909rhodia/

a compilation of test results using fuel borne catalyst with and without dpf, and with or without active regeneration.

If you want to avoid active regeneration, you should increase the dosageof the catalyst. 50ppm works, which amounts to 1ml of eolys powerflex per liter diesel. The cost would be prohibitive though.

to reduce the dpf regen temperature by 100C 1ml per 10l of diesel fuel is enough.

You can buy this additive from Citroen/peugeot dealers in 1 liter or 3 liter containers. This works out massively cheaper than buying ready made products which contain the same technology. at a dosage rate of 1 ml/10l, your cost is down to about 25 euro cents per tank.

oh, an active reneration takes about 0.5 litres of diesel to complete, so if you manage to go without active regens with 2ml/10l or less, you're ahead already.

the same additive reduces soot production by 50% in non dpf cars aswell, but you'll emit cerium into the atmosphere.
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https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_fbc.php

some more information of having a fuel borne catalyst and the way it influences the DPF.

Also supports the theory that 2-stroke oil increases the passive regenerations and reduces fuel cosumption: 2-stroke oil typically uses Calcium as a detergent/anti-wear additive but is also an effective FBC, reducing the ability to produce soot.

the Powerflex additve is Ferrous, thus far less polluting than cerium based FBC like the first version of the DPF liquid used by PSA.

and here the effect on cars without DPF https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nd_composition

Quote:
Experiments using ferrocene as a diesel fuel additive, with varying fuel Fe concentrations from 0 to 200 ppm, indicate ca 30–40% decreases in particle mass, total particle volume, and black carbon emissions, and increases (approaching a factor of 5) in particle number concentrations associated with 10–30 nm Fe particles liberated during soot oxidation.
the FBC also acts as a cetane booster.
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