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(Post Link) post #1 of 21 Old 25-08-15 Thread Starter
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almost ready to go bigger turbo 1.9 jtdm

so guys over the past few months I've been collecting a few bits I've got the jtd performance front pipe and and centre pipe uprated map sensor and a front intercooler kit for my 147JTDm next bit I need is the turbo been looking at this would this be suitable

GTB2260vk
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...496777&alt=web

I trying to get everything fitted without having to make new pipes with new flanges I'm leaning to more direct fit when it comes to the turbo and manifold

power aim mid 200hp and mid 300nm

any advise on this would help and appreciated
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2260 should run around 35psi tops, enough for high 200s on a 16v 1.9 but without lots of smoke, 250 should be okay. Torque wise I'm a bit confused, 320NM is standard for the 16v in the Vectra and with that turbo 500-600NM would be the target for me.
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2260 should run around 35psi tops, enough for high 200s on a 16v 1.9 but without lots of smoke, 250 should be okay. Torque wise I'm a bit confused, 320NM is standard for the 16v in the Vectra and with that turbo 500-600NM would be the target for me.
thanks was a typo meant mid 400 but if it's 500 to 600 even better

and I'm regards to fitting is it plug and play? I don't really want the hassle on sourcing pipe and flange doe all this with my track car want this to be as simple as possible this to me round as it my daily

or can you recommend any other turbo's that would work?

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Originally Posted by rc_addicted View Post
thanks was a typo meant mid 400 but if it's 500 to 600 even better

and I'm regards to fitting is it plug and play? I don't really want the hassle on sourcing pipe and flange doe all this with my track car want this to be as simple as possible this to me round as it my daily

or can you recommend any other turbo's that would work?
That turbo is far from plug and play! If you aim for 250 hp, i'd take the GTB2056v instead. Much better spoolup and response and much easier to adapt than that 2260. Only if you aim for 280+ hp such a turbo is a good choice.
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thanks yep I went back to the jtd performance website and and found the gtb2056v compete kit which works out at a ok price .

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Joel do you have any base maps that you can supply with your GTB kits? Is it necessary to upgrade the injectors on a 156 16v CF3 with your kit? Exchange rate makes these seem very good value for money at the moment.
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Joel do you have any base maps that you can supply with your GTB kits? Is it necessary to upgrade the injectors on a 156 16v CF3 with your kit? Exchange rate makes these seem very good value for money at the moment.


I'll send you a PM.
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Joel I guessing your a supplier on these turbo kits send me a pm with more details please
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Cheapest is to make your turbo a hybrid, you can go easily for 1756 or 1856 and it's just plug and play.
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A GT18 vnt cage won't fit into a GT17 housing without machining though, so it is not a simple job. I have a GT1858 with a bespoke billet wheel running upto 34psi but what boost you can happily run on a 56mm depends on the variant
39.6mm - 27psi
41.6mm - 29psi
43.4mm - 31psi

As a rough guide from what I rate them at when selling.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutron View Post
A GT18 vnt cage won't fit into a GT17 housing without machining though, so it is not a simple job. I have a GT1858 with a bespoke billet wheel running upto 34psi but what boost you can happily run on a 56mm depends on the variant
39.6mm - 27psi
41.6mm - 29psi
43.4mm - 31psi

As a rough guide from what I rate them at when selling.
Strange you don't add engine rpm to that chart. Because the max safe boost at 3000 or 5000 rpm makes quite a difference.
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Cheapest is to make your turbo a hybrid, you can go easily for 1756 or 1856 and it's just plug and play.
how hard is to do it ?because i was thinking on doing it hybrid . What do I need for that ?
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how hard is to do it ?because i was thinking on doing it hybrid . What do I need for that ?
There are specialized shops for that... You can't do it by yourself. I have such hybrid and run it safely at 1.9 bar boost.
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I agree in principle that you can flow more air at a lower rpm without over spreeding the shaft JS but as peak power always occurs around or after 4000rpm, I think it is fair to assume that is the point we are talking about.

So if it pleases, all of the figures I stated about are to be assumed as relating to 4000-4500rpm.

These values are what I use, because I want the turbos to have a long life and these levels should allow for some over boost above that too. In practice on my own car, I ran 31psi on the 39.6/56.0 compressor for some time but I tend to change my turbo nearly every year to continue development and I don't tend to push the turbo heavily on a daily basis, where as some people I've supplied seem to think they are driving a race car 365 days a year.

People call things safe with no evidence other than their turbo has not blown up to date. If you want safe, you pick a value BELOW that which it has been tested to, so that you have confidence that it will not fail. If you run it to the limit of what others have done then it is not a safe working limit, any you are accepting on risk that you are pushing the limits of the unit for the benefits they bring.

I push the limits because I can aford to replace the turbo and engine if need be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rc_addicted View Post
so guys over the past few months I've been collecting a few bits I've got the jtd performance front pipe and and centre pipe uprated map sensor and a front intercooler kit for my 147JTDm next bit I need is the turbo been looking at this would this be suitable

GTB2260vk
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...496777&alt=web

I trying to get everything fitted without having to make new pipes with new flanges I'm leaning to more direct fit when it comes to the turbo and manifold

power aim mid 200hp and mid 300nm

any advise on this would help and appreciated
Why if you are after a steady 200bhp+ why don't you go the same way i have? Turbo dynamics hybrid. To pull off the bigger turbo from JTD you need to consider bigger maf...New bar map sensor..new adapter for the Bigger maf to fit the airbox...And i would strongly advise a FMIC or WMI.. Also is your clover the 170 version. Because the 170's came with better flowing injectors, which would be a nice upgrade to optimise this kit. Obviously Joel's GTB turbo kit is the best for our engine power output wise. Just with what you are suggesting power wise, i wonder if the turbo dynamics hybrid would be an easier option for you? That turbo will give up to 240bhp and a slug load of torque. I would also have your clutch upgraded. My stock clutch went 5 days after fitting the hybrid. The standard unit cannot take the extra torque..Joel does a great stage 1 clutch kit..

Damien.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Who thought diesels could be this bloody fun"

KW V3 coilovers. Eibach ARB kit. Autolusso remap. JTD performance high flow downpipe. WMI. Bespoke spec Turbo Dynamics hybrid.JTD performance FMIC kit.JTD performance high flow downpipe. Autolusso de swirl flap mod.Autolusso Mocal oil cooler kit. Autolusso smf GTA clutch kit. GTA 330mm big brake kit.JTD perf inlet pipe.Wizard exhaust system. 19x8 OZ superleggera's.
"big thanks to Ned and the lads at Autolusso"
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Why if you are after a steady 200bhp+ why don't you go the same way i have? Turbo dynamics hybrid. To pull off the bigger turbo from JTD you need to consider bigger maf...New bar map sensor..new adapter for the Bigger maf to fit the airbox...And i would strongly advise a FMIC or WMI.. Also is your clover the 170 version. Because the 170's came with better flowing injectors, which would be a nice upgrade to optimise this kit. Obviously Joel's GTB turbo kit is the best for our engine power output wise. Just with what you are suggesting power wise, i wonder if the turbo dynamics hybrid would be an easier option for you? That turbo will give up to 240bhp and a slug load of torque. I would also have your clutch upgraded. My stock clutch went 5 days after fitting the hybrid. The standard unit cannot take the extra torque..Joel does a great stage 1 clutch kit..

Damien.
None of the stuff you said is needed if he changes the turbo, any more than it would be with a hybrid. If you fit a hybrid OR a different turbo, it should increase airflow and pressure, that is the whole point otherwise you wasted your time.

If you increase boost pressure then a FMIC would be advised but WMI is not needed at any point unless EGTs get uncontrollably high due to massive boost and fueling.

The TMAP only needs changing if you are running to or beyond its limits, regardless of turbo type.

The MAF only needs changing if you are exceeding its range.

Hybrid or different turbo model has nothing to do with what you need unless you have to change oil/water pipe lines.

I've always run hybrids because my manifold is bespoke, mostly from CR Turbos but a couple I had made at TDI Turbos. The hybrids I run can be run on a completely standard map and setup but then it is pointless as you get no more power. The last hybrid I fitted to a friends car required a FMIC, change of MAF, change of TMAP and change of injectors to make proper use of it as it can sustain 2.3bar or more. Fortunately the Vauxhall clutches usually hold a minimum of 350lbft and most slip around 380lbft, so a clutch change is not needed as I'll keep torque down to 350-370lbft and just aim for a sensible 230 wheel power (260bhp ish).

Don't get confused thinking hybrids mean nothing needs changing. I also don't rate Team Dynamics at all.

I'll just expand on that last point; 2psi more boost than a standard turbo is all their hybrids are ratted for. That's worthless and won't get you anywhere near 220bhp in real life. The turbos already come with 360 deg thrust bearings as standard, so god knows what they think they are doing. The price is outrageous. So what you have there is a turbine trim and a compressor change but for just 24psi max, they must have chosen a tiny 52mm compressor which is not worth having. You either want a 39.6/56.0 or 41.6/56.0 compressor, the former will support 26psi and the latter 29psi all day long. Now I think the comment is justified.

Last edited by nutron; 22-10-15 at 15:41.
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None of the stuff you said is needed if he changes the turbo, any more than it would be with a hybrid. If you fit a hybrid OR a different turbo, it should increase airflow and pressure, that is the whole point otherwise you wasted your time.

If you increase boost pressure then a FMIC would be advised but WMI is not needed at any point unless EGTs get uncontrollably high due to massive boost and fueling.

The TMAP only needs changing if you are running to or beyond its limits, regardless of turbo type.

The MAF only needs changing if you are exceeding its range.

Hybrid or different turbo model has nothing to do with what you need unless you have to change oil/water pipe lines.

I've always run hybrids because my manifold is bespoke, mostly from CR Turbos but a couple I had made at TDI Turbos. The hybrids I run can be run on a completely standard map and setup but then it is pointless as you get no more power. The last hybrid I fitted to a friends car required a FMIC, change of MAF, change of TMAP and change of injectors to make proper use of it as it can sustain 2.3bar or more. Fortunately the Vauxhall clutches usually hold a minimum of 350lbft and most slip around 380lbft, so a clutch change is not needed as I'll keep torque down to 350-370lbft and just aim for a sensible 230 wheel power (260bhp ish).

Don't get confused thinking hybrids mean nothing needs changing. I also don't rate Team Dynamics at all.

I'll just expand on that last point; 2psi more boost than a standard turbo is all their hybrids are ratted for. That's worthless and won't get you anywhere near 220bhp in real life. The turbos already come with 360 deg thrust bearings as standard, so god knows what they think they are doing. The price is outrageous. So what you have there is a turbine trim and a compressor change but for just 24psi max, they must have chosen a tiny 52mm compressor which is not worth having. You either want a 39.6/56.0 or 41.6/56.0 compressor, the former will support 26psi and the latter 29psi all day long. Now I think the comment is justified.
Not convinced what you are saying is the truth...At all..

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They are factually incorrect on the thrust bearing and what they offer can not make what they claim. I'm sorry that you don't like that but there it is. I go by road wheel figures and would expect 190-210 wheel power minimum to achieve 220-240bhp. The standard turbo runs 22psi just to make 150bhp, so you're asking 70bhp, 47% more power from 2 psi, just 10% more boost.

Now you might be running far more boost than they rate it for, the standard GT1749 will produce over 29psi but how long it lasts is another matter.
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I do not agree completely with Nutron.
A friend of mine in NL runs a Turbo Dynamics hybrid too, and that does 26 psi up to 4500 rpm reliable, where the standard turbo tops at 22 psi. The power gain over the standard turbo was around 20 hp, from 180 to 200 hp.


Sure, it might be not the most effective turbo upgrade, but it's for sure not a worthless upgrade.
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So in the name of research and to get a better understanding i contacted Turbo Dynamics by email. I have always been impressed with their customer care and have always got back to me promptly.

I was a little bit concerned to say the least, about what i have read and wanted to be sure i was in the safety zone with my current turbo setup. I have to say i do appreciate discussions like this. It really makes you think and look at things from different perspectives. So i value the feedback.

The reply i received came as a shock in a very good way. Personally i am very impressed with the unit i have by Turbo dynamics and its character and power delivery. That was never in question. It really is night and day compared to the std 170 unit i had before. Mostly up the mid top of the rev range. Where the oem unit ran out of puff the new hybrid just keeps on strong to the red line. What i needed to be sure of was that it could comfortably cope with the increased boost levels.

Anyhow here is their reply. I might add i did point them at our thread discussion. As i needed answers to the fair questions being brought to light.

Hi Damien

The turbocharger we supplied AutoLusso at the time, which I presume was for your car, was a bespoke turbo designed to meet the criteria asked for by Autolusso. It was not an MDX556 or any other spec we advertise. For your information, whilst we list lots of different hybrid turbos online, a large portion of our work is building one-off specifications that are designed in collaboration with our customers to suit their individual requirements. The specification of your turbocharger includes a 56mm / 41.55mm MFS billet aluminium extended tip compressor wheel. It also includes a cutback/clipping to the turbine wheel (15 degrees) and improved turbine end oil seal (staggered gap type). We use the latest vibration sorting rigs (balancers) and vane-flow test-rigs to ensure all VNT type turbochargers meet our strict tolerances and build quality. You will notice the link Andy sent you also refers to a ‘360 degree thrust bearing’. Customers expect a 360 degree thrust bearing and many aren’t aware they are fitted to many modern turbos from the factory, so for obvious reasons we include this detail in the specs online so customers know exactly what they are getting when ordering online or reviewing our specs online. We do not brandish this part as ‘upgraded’ or ‘special’ in any way for these particular turbos, but the fact that the turbo has a 360 degree thrust bearing is an important bit of information nonetheless, so it is simply listed as “360 degree thrust bearing”. The subject of boost pressure and the figure of 24PSI is a moot point, as the turbo we built for your car is not a listed spec, nor is there any advertising for it online – it would have been discussed with Autolusso at the point of sale. As I understand it your feedback for this turbo set up was very positive and you were impressed with the power delivery and performance of the turbo. I do hope your opinion of Turbo Dynamics and the products/services we offer remain untainted by the opinions of the few misguided ‘keyboard warriors’ who proclaim to be experts or professionals.



If you have any questions or would like to start looking at other turbo options, feel free to drop me an email or call the office for a chat.



Kind regards,



Tom Russell



Turbo Dynamics Limited

20-21 Somerford Business Park, Wilverley Road, Christchurch, Dorset, BH23 3RU. United Kingdom



Tel: + 44(0) 1202 487497

Fax: + 44(0) 1202 487467

Email: [email protected]



Visit our websites: Turbo Dynamics - Design & manufacture of turbo's for all applications and Hybrid Turbos - Specialists in turbocharger technology
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The turbo they supplied is very similar to something I ran and far better than the one they advertise. Ignoring any negatives I still have, I flog those rated to 29psi and that should support 240bhp (210whp) with 299 or 327 injectors. More importantly, unlike the stage one they advertise, this unit would indeed be able to max out the clutch at 380+lbft. So I would believe you that you car is fast and infact I did standing mile drag races at a Vauxhall specific event and at that level of tuning I was out running the standard 280bhp 2.8T VXR Vectras with a higher terminal speed.

I'm glad this had a positive outcome
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