Having fun with 156 Crosswagon Q4 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

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(Post Link) post #1 of 15 Old 24-07-15 Thread Starter
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Having fun with 156 Crosswagon Q4

Project started last year, after I got a nasty internal infection and almost did not made it to the hospital due to my idiot Golf 6 DSG refusing to drive in snow, I decided to go full time AWD.
First I got a Crosswagon and changed all consumables as to have it for daily driver.
Drive stance and cornering were nice and I said I want more, basically I wanted something with the stability of an Impreza STI, permanent all wheel drive with Torsen 3 interaxle, low fuel consumption, high ground clearance to go where others cannot go, with a reliable engine and also not so expensive.
Putting all this on the paper found no other result than the Crosswagon.
Of course I wanted more and I got more. During time the following upgrades have been installed:
- custom Torsen 2 LSD for the rear axle
- reinforced front upper arms
- front strut brace
- FMIC with as little as possible silicone plumbing (due to turbulences that may appear)
- bigger turbo (1749 was hybridized to 1856)
- kevlar clutch

Car currently runs at 2 bars boost and 93mm3/i maximum, smokeless, which I estimate to around 230HP. Combined with the Q4, the old frying pan makes a pleasure to drive, especially that cornering with the throttle down puts a big grin on my face where FWDs brake in order to avoid understeering. Wheel power should be less than FWDs due to Q4, but I do not care too much since overall, on a curvy road I can own any of them hands down.
Power delivery vs low body mass is fantastic, I had so much fun with a poor lad with a 3.2 Q4 Brera on the Bayerische Autobahn, he simply could not keep up. After a couple of funny takeovers we split up greeting each other

Rear LSD makes sideways cornering/drifting a real pleasure on slippery roads. I've also thought of a front LSD but then parking would be really a PITA.

Next project would be a 2.4 q4 159 also with LSD.

Just a short dump of fuel vs air.

Time Engine speed Total fuel quantity Intake air quantity Boost pressure
sec rpm mm≥/i mg/i mBar
0 1232 48.741 571 1120
0.36 1514 43.695 608.5 1184
0.73 1830 43.536 661.5 1317
1.07 2193 50.268 731.5 1519
1.43 2625 44.478 831.5 1761
1.78 2523 0 651 1508
2.12 2062 37.695 670.5 1444
2.46 1857 55.674 795.5 1571
2.84 2060 61.815 839.5 1735
3.18 2257 69.303 941 1970
3.56 2523 70.086 1012 2196
3.93 2820 71.382 1160 2485
4.29 3137 72.981 1279 2747
4.67 3244 0 620.5 1698
5.03 2662 33.897 661.5 1484
5.4 2303 74.82 834 1792
5.75 2238 74.82 971 2006
6.12 2320 82.779 1109.5 2283
6.47 2448 85.695 1224.5 2544
6.85 2604 87.804 1317.5 2728
7.2 2761 90.147 1357 2841
7.57 2918 92.7 1375.5 2924
7.92 3082 93.504 1394 2983
8.31 3244 93.453 1374.5 2974
8.68 3401 93.582 1345 2951
9.02 3540 93.453 1319 2900
9.4 3671 93.564 1292 2818

Last edited by bmf_cw; 24-07-15 at 17:54.
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Nice project ! Any pictures of the beast ?
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(Post Link) post #3 of 15 Old 26-07-15 Thread Starter
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Pictures with the bucket bolt, FMIC, clutch and LSD (say hello to Mr Worm peeking out the window).
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg IMG-20150508-WA0000.jpeg (120.2 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0022 (1).JPG (76.8 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0024.jpg (29.9 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20150518_141545.jpg (50.7 KB, 106 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20150518_141552.jpg (131.0 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg IMG-20150312-WA0007.jpg (102.4 KB, 79 views)
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(Post Link) post #4 of 15 Old 26-07-15 Thread Starter
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More FMIC craftsmanship.
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File Type: jpg IMG-20150312-WA0004.jpg (112.6 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg IMG-20150312-WA0005.jpg (114.3 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMG-20150312-WA0015.jpg (109.1 KB, 53 views)
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(Post Link) post #5 of 15 Old 01-01-16 Thread Starter
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After driving the car hard for 1 day on the motorway, car developed a clutch chatter.
It appeared at takeoff from standstill and also when releasing the clutch when downshifting, not when upshifting.
A German service diagnosed it as DMF failure. DMF was replaced with a Valeo, altogether with a new Sachs clutch kit reinforced with Kevlar, although the original DMF did not present any play or spring failure. In about 30kms, the new DMF completely failed, juddered and slipped, being replaced in the end back with the original one. Aftermarket Valeo DMFs seem to have a different design than original one. They are easily recognizable by putting the 2 DMFs on a table, the original one will have its engine surface close to the table, the new weak one has a "gap" between its back and the engine. The inner plastic seal on the new one seems to have also a smaller diameter.
Gearbox was removed and I have discovered the following (by comparison):
- Sachs kit clutch plate is a different design rather than stock one (Sachs has 15 rays, Valeo has 18, winner seems to be Sachs, holding more torque). Clutch kit code is 3000.951.541.
- Sachs kit clutch disc is actually sourced from AP and has a center ring made from a very soft material, leading to errosion of the inner teeth due to high torque and induced a play between disc and gearbox rod, leading to chatter and disc warping.
- Valeo clutch disc has a stronger center ring. Much stronger!
After opening the clutch again, original DMF was mounted back together with a Valeo clutch disc reinforced with carbon kevlar and a Sachs plate. There is no chatter and no slip.
Effort on the clutch is much stronger on Q4 system than 2WD due to virtually no wheel slip and strong transmission opposition to engine therefore due care must be taken with choosing components.
Ideal combination for this power seems to be:
- Original DMF - or a similar one from Alfa
- Valeo clutch disc reinforced with kevlar (stock one would be fine, just inspect it and then change friction plates at a specialized shop).
- Sachs clutch plate. Buy the kit quoted above, throw the disc in the garbage bin and use the plate.
For me going to ceramic clutch was not an option due to guaranteed chatterand loss of comfort.
Going to SMF is NOT an option for chipped engines. There is strong chatter on low rpms and driving comfort is ****e even with stock map.
Initlally the new clutch slipped on high torque for 7-800kms. It needs some bedding and break-in so be patient.
I agree this was an expensive experiment, I am posting here so others don't run into same trial-and-error game.
Next steps would be:
- get a OEM DMF and replace springs with stronger ones
- shave 0.1-0.3mm from the flywheel-pressure plate contact surface, to increase clamping pressure
Try at your own risk!

Last edited by bmf_cw; 01-01-16 at 20:02.
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(Post Link) post #6 of 15 Old 03-01-16 Thread Starter
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I attach below pictures with the pressure plate from Sachs as opposed by one from Valeo.
You may find at post #3 the clutch disc you should definitely stay away from.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20151212_232025.jpg (65.7 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20151212_231837.jpg (57.3 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg valeo.jpg (166.2 KB, 26 views)
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(Post Link) post #7 of 15 Old 09-10-16 Thread Starter
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For any info:
282263 - the "bad" flywheel (softer springs, room for counterweights on the back)
281716 - the one that worked for me.
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Can you turn the stability control off on the q4?
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(Post Link) post #9 of 15 Old 25-10-16 Thread Starter
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Yes it has VDC disable button.
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Hey , I live in Bayern too , would you like to give some more info on the build via email ? -> [email protected] )
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(Post Link) post #11 of 15 Old 04-08-17 Thread Starter
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Why not sharing together with the community here
I've seen CWs are cheap in Germany, for 2.5k one could get a decent one.
I don't have the car anymore, I switched instead to an A4 2.0 TFSI quattro. Although the money I paid for it was bigger, I can find lots of powerups (e.g. sport suspension, custom diffs, turbo upgrades etc). It has a sportier stance than the Alfa
Last upgrade I did to CW before giving it away was to put 20mm spacers on the back and 5mm in the front. It was a bit of improvement in steering during cornering.

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ok then , nice , what kind of intercooler did you put on ? and what kind of turbo is the hybridised turbo ? Where and how did you get it remapped , i want to know more details about the build
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(Post Link) post #13 of 15 Old 08-08-17 Thread Starter
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Oh for FMIC I used the forum search function and lots of goodies here: https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...v-fmic-qs.html
For the lazy ones, the info came from a neighbor in Bayern:
Quote:
Total is 700mm x 180 mm
Core size is 550mm x 180mm
Fitting 2.25"
Turbo... hmm... I had 2 original GTB1749 that I have hybridized in my home country (Romania); one at GTB1756 MFS CHRA, the other at 1856. I find the spool in the MFS more on my tastes, the other one is able to sustain boost on much higher RPMs but i don't do drag racing.
Remap was done here: SquadraCorse - Chiptuning & Anulare DPF Filtru Particule Alfa Romeo & Anulare DPF Filtru Particule Fiat The guy is pretty nice and he could do it remotely via Teamviewer on a 3G modem on my laptop, it was really cool I was making highway pulls and he changed the maps and uploaded them in the ECU.
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Care to share wich lsd you used in the rear axle?
Lanca Delta ?
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(Post Link) post #15 of 15 Old 16-08-17 Thread Starter
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No, one done from scratch in a workshop. There is a legend with this Lancia transmission. The one used in CW Q4 is made by Graziano special for this model.
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