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(Post Link) post #1 of 17 Old 25-06-15 Thread Starter
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Upgrading 147 1.9 JTDm 16V

Hello Guys,

first-off let me say that i am very impressed by this forum. The amount of JTD knowledge and interesting projects is so much higher than in the german alfa-forums.

My name is Moritz, i am from Germany and drive an Alfa 147 1.9 JTDm 16V Q2 (110kW) as my daily-drive car, which i rebuilt last August. I renewed the head-gasket, fitted refurbished injectors (which are now about 15.000km old) and cleaned the whole intake. On the engine side, the car now has these mods:

- EGR-delete
- fixed swirl-flaps
- removed guts of precatalyst
- removed guts of DPF, the main cat is still in to prevent boost creep
- Novitec duplex silencer
- remaps (Tomfile1 and Tomfile2)

Some other mods were also fitted, including powerflex all around, strut bar in the front, Eibach springs and dampers and custom camber-correction bushes for Powerflex bushes.

I started out with the EGR-Delete and a remap to 365Nm (referred to as "Tomfile1"). After that, i removed the guts of the precatalyst (the shell needs to stay in place in case i get pulled over. The only option for fitting another downpipe is to fit it inside the existing precat housing) and tried to measure the car with my obd-dyno. Please be aware that the numbers on the dyno-chart may be way off. I'm using it just to measure the impact of the individual mods.

Because the clutch slipped at WOT between 2000 and 2600 rpm and strong vibrations occured, i got another remap, which has lower IQ between 2000 and 3000 rpm but increased power output on the top end. (referred to as "Tomfile2") With this remap I also deleted the DPF. The slipping clutch is better now. After removing the DPF i noticed a lot of black smoke when i floor the throttle in low rpms. Once the Turbo has spooled up, the smoke is gone. I guess that is normal?!

I still have to do a proper 6th gear log once i get a better traffic situation here.

My goal is to get the most out of the stock engine while maintaining reliability and keeping it smokeless. I'd like to be able to reach a topspeed of 230 km/h. Therefore, i reckon i would need about 200bhp.
I think there are some mods which could be fitted in the future and with your help, i'd like to decide what to do first.

As the requirements to pass the MOT in Germany are quite strict, i cannot do visually obvious mods without paying a ton of money to pass the MOT. Fitting a custom 2,5" exhaust would cost 500 just to have it tested by the officials, in addition to parts and labour. An obvious turbo upgrade will probably cost even more to get it officialy certified.

During my logging-runs i noticed that my intake air temperature is getting quite high. If I go WOT, once I hit 4000 rpm on 4th, 5th or 6th gear my IAT is already at 70C (ambient 23C) and it stays there until i go slower again. Somewhere i read that 10 degrees of reduced intake air temperature can result in 3% power gain. So to increase my topend power, i thought about installing an FMIC or a waterspray system for the stock SMIC. The question is: How much better will an FMIC perform compared to the stock SMIC with waterspray? The cost for both systems is about the same, except i have to get an official approval after fitting the FMIC. And most important: Will colder intake air really result in higher power?

I have read some threads in this forum (including the great threads by JS,yan.ko,tribesman and many others) concering a turbo upgrade. The problem is, that, if i decide to upgrade the turbo, i need something that looks quite like the stock GT1752v. So a GT2256v from a 2.4 JTD will probably be too big to fit under the heat-shields. With the GTB2056 it is probably difficult to fit the downpipe inside the stock cat. I also read that the stock turbo is good enough for 200bhp and could bear up to 1,8 bar boost, what other mods would be needed to reach that figure? Is this the upper limit or is the turbo still reliable at that point?

Currently I am running 1,6 bar boost and IQ 85 mm^3/i is it possible to still gain something via software or is a hardware-upgrade immient?

Would WM-Injection make sense on this state of the engine? This is something i could easily hide and if i look at JS JTD's 147, it gives quite a big performance boost. Im wondering if i push the turbo into the area of overboost/boost-creep from the added exhaust gas as a result of the WM-Injection?

So to sum up my questions (TL;DR):

- FMIC or SMIC+Waterspray to reduce intake temperature?
- How much more IQ can the stock injectors handle at 1750 bar?
- Which Turbo will i be able to "stealth"-fit (not necessarily bolt-on) and provides a decent performance upgrade? GTB1756V? Hybrid?
- When is a bigger exhaust necessary?
- Can i remove the main cat and still prevent boost-creep with the stock turbo?
- Does WM-Injection currently makes sense?

- Any other ideas which i maybe haven't thought of yet?

I'm looking forward to your suggestions and opinions.

Sincerly,

Moritz
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Tomfile1-WOT-6th-gear-partial.pdf (105.0 KB, 23 views)
File Type: pdf Tomfile2-WOT-4th-gear-moredata.pdf (93.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Tomfile2-WOT-4th-gear2.pdf (86.3 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Tomfile2-WOT-4th-gear1.pdf (84.0 KB, 9 views)
File Type: pdf Dyno-3rd-gear-tomfile1.pdf (38.7 KB, 15 views)
File Type: pdf Dyno-3rd-gear-tomfile2.pdf (38.7 KB, 12 views)
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A FMIC will make a huge difference and if you want to increase boost at all then you should have one.

A hybrid with a larger compressor would let you safely run more boost without changing the external appearance at all.
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Moritz, write me a message to XXX

It's easier for me, to answer you in german.

Last edited by crossshot; 29-06-15 at 13:02.
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(Post Link) post #4 of 17 Old 02-07-15 Thread Starter
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To sum up what crossshot told me via email:

Modifying my Silencer to be freeflow probably would lower my EGT without making the car too loud and it could be done very stealthy. The main cat should stay in place to prevent boost creep and oil-seepage through the turbine seal. An option would be to replace the cat wit a 200-cell Race-Cat, but that would be quite costly while i probably would not gain too much considering EGT and Turbo spool.

During logging this week i noticed that i am probably very close to maximum safe EGTs when it is hot outside (35C) and i go for a long full-throttle run in 6th gear. At this point i have intake temperature at about 100C and EGT at 730C after the turbo. If i factor in the loss of temperature over the turbo with about 100C, i am pretty close to the maximum safe EGT for the GT1749V of 850C, right?

So before i can add any more fuel, i need to drop the EGT quite a bit to keep the engine reliable. Is this correct or are my EGT reference numbers wrong?

I've ordered the parts to make a waterspray kit for my SMIC and probably a DIY water-meth injection kit. First i will compare SMIC with and without waterspray, as i hope to reduce the intake temperature quite a bit.
If this is not enough, i will fit a front mounted intercooler.

I've found this kit, which was referenced in another thread in this forum, for upgrading the compressor of a GT17 to the one of a GT20, which should be able to do 1,9 bar boost.
Diesel-Power-Concept - Upgradekit von Garrett GT15/GT17/GT18 auf GT20 bis 1,9 bar GT17-GT20

Would that be a suitable option to make a hybrid turbo?
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I agree with nutron, a fmic with hybrid turbo is a good choice for your application.
With these parts you can reach your power goal quite easily and safely.
To have less appearance, just spray the intercooler and pipes black. You can also use a piece of original hose for the upper part that connects to the intake manifold.

The fmic has a massive effect (40+ degrees less) you will need a very big watertank to get equal cooling effect from spraying the smic. Unpractical and it's added weight that reduces performance.
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Removing the Cats or gutting them will not cause boost creep with correct mapping but very few people actually have the skills to adjust the VNT duties effectively.
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(Post Link) post #7 of 17 Old 03-07-15 Thread Starter
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After reading a bit more, i agree with you both, the way to choose is hybrid turbo and fmic. I will probably use the waterspray parts to do wm-injection then.

But, which compressor should i choose to make a hybrid? The one i linked in my last post? Can you recommend something nutron?

And who should I contact to do the mapping? My tuner who has done the previous mods has no experience with hybrid turbos.
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I've got good news for you. 180 bhp will be plenty to reach 230 kph... but you need it at the correct RPM, which is rather high....

both my 156 2.4 136 (remapped and decatted) and the current giulietta (standard 170 bhp) reach 230 kph. the 156 reached 230 around 4700-ish rpm, the G needs 4300 rpm.
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I'd use a 41.6/56.0 compressor and if you want to splash a bit, you can get those in a billet version with an extended tip.

That will happily support 28psi at 4000rpm and shoild allow you to exceed 200 wheel power. Torque you'd likely see 350-380lbft but you'll definitely nees to change the intercooler.
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(Post Link) post #10 of 17 Old 04-07-15 Thread Starter
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Cuore_Sportivo_155:

Indeed, i can already reach 230 km/h, but it takes a very long time and straight road to get there. It's not satisfying.

I already ordered the FMIC parts and contacted a few companys regarding the hybrid turbo parts. Is there anyone except Z-Turbos and Turbodynamics that someone can recommend? And i still need to get the software part taken care of...
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I use CR Turbos, they do turbos for me all the time as I shift them on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandolff View Post
Cuore_Sportivo_155:

Indeed, i can already reach 230 km/h, but it takes a very long time and straight road to get there. It's not satisfying.

I already ordered the FMIC parts and contacted a few companys regarding the hybrid turbo parts. Is there anyone except Z-Turbos and Turbodynamics that someone can recommend? And i still need to get the software part taken care of...
that is because the closer you get to 230 kph, the less power the engine produces... focus on getting power a bit higher in the rev range, and possibly extend the rev range a bit. doesn't the original software go leaner when you approach redline? Get that leaning moved up further in the rev range, after the FMIC is fitted.

I agree with nutron, get both cats hollowed out. The main cat is only half a cat (or was anyway) with the rear half being a silencer.
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(Post Link) post #13 of 17 Old 05-07-15 Thread Starter
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I looked at my logs again,

and indeed, after reaching peak power at 3970 rpm, the IQ drops quite fast while the airflow also drops, but at a slower rate, which means that the engine is running leaner.

So to increase the rpm at which peak power occurs, i need to get more fuel into the engine at higher rpm right? How is the best way to achieve that? I'd think raising Railpressure to get more fuel in the same time would be it (apart from changing the injection timing, which i've read is bad practice)? Maybe i've got to make my own map sometime...

I've already thought about replacing the complete DPF and main cat internals with a larger, straight pipe but unitl now i've been put off by the impression that it would cause boost creep (which it seems is not true with the right remap), oil seepage without staggered seals, and it smells, which could be conspicous. I should reconsider it if my EGTs become a problem after fitting the FMIC.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.
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Fueling is dropping because air flow is dropping and/or the map is IQ limiting. If you increase fueling it will smoke loads without more air but it is easy to map it to hold the same IQ until 6000rpm if you want.
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(Post Link) post #15 of 17 Old 14-07-15 Thread Starter
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Okay, all the FMIC parts are here and i've started making the mounting brackets. I'll post some photos when i'm done.

Unfortunately it seems i shot my turbo last sunday as i was doing full throttle for about 6 km. About 90 seconds after reaching 232 km/h, the car went into - what appeared to be - limp mode, but without any error message and no logged errors. It seemed as it just opened the VNT completely. So no boost at all. After switching the engine off and on again, the boost was back and the car behaved like normal. Except there is now a clearly audible whine which corresponds to the turbo speed.

Maybe i had boost-creep and the car went into limp-mode because of overboost, but as i had no logging equipment attached at that time and there were no error codes, i really don't know why it happened. What really puzzles me is that there were no errors, as i would have expected that there would be at least some error code in the memory.

It seems it's really time for a replacement turbo now
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Depends on the remap, many places take out safety limits but it certainly sounds like you went into limp.

For the very low output you are desiring, a 52mm compressor running 25psi would be enough but a small variant of 56mm would give you more margin to play with.

I would leave the turbine as standard for 200bhp.
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(Post Link) post #17 of 17 Old 18-07-15 Thread Starter
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Hey Guys, time for an update.

The FMIC parts are nearly done, it all fits nicely. The pipes, brackets and the core still needs painting though. I had quite some trouble with the headlight washers, as they make routing the pipe after the fmic to the intake manifold quite difficult. But in the end i managed to get the same angle as the stock smic, so the upper pipe to the intake manifold is a straight fit now.

I had to cut the resonating chamber a bit, but since i closed it off a long time ago, this didn't cause problems. The pipe after the turbo still needs some adjusting.

A friend of mine who is a car mechanic assumed, since there was no MIL on limp mode, high EGT could have been the cause. I haven't found a corresponding map in the ECU File yet to check it.

Next week i will fit the fmic and replace the turbo with a spare one from my breaker. Then i'll probably send the howling turbo off to tditurbos or cr-turbos to have it rebuilt as a hybrid. Both companies made pretty good offers, i still have to decide who will get the turbo.
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