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(Post Link) post #1 of 30 Old 15-05-15 Thread Starter
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selespeed turbo project help please

Hey everyone I have owned my 156 selespeed for a year and love the car (when it runs fine) but would like to get more power out of it. I want to install a turbo and after gathering much info this is what I will do, if u see any problems in my setup please let me know. This thread is for me to brainstorm ideas and future problems before I start. The boost will be 0.5 bar which I think is about 5-6psi. Turbo is a Garrette t25 (anyone know at what rpm it will kick in and when it'll bottom out?). An intercooler and oil cooler will be installed. The stock manifold with no cats from the older ts engine will be used. No remap done , will just unplug the lambda so car runs rich and stock (orange injectors ) will be used. I'm on a budget... I have read that stock market injectors and ecu are fine to 225bhp Wichita I don't think I'll exceed with this setup. Compression will be left as it is as I have read that its better to leave it than risk blowing the engine. I'm not sure what grade of synthetic oil I'll use, currently use Mobil 1 5w50 might leave it as it is.
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Good luck with the build

I've had the privilege of driving a 2.0TS with a TD04HL-16T turbo from a Volvo T5 for a year. It would start boosting at 2500RPM with full boost at 3000RPM and drop off just before 6000RPM. I am using the same turbo now in my new 2.0TS build.

1st off you'll have to say which SPECIFIC Garrett T25 you are going to use so to know which map to look at. T25 only refers to the Turbine, what about compressor?
Use this wizard to help:
Garrett Boost Adviser - Online | Turbobygarrett

The GT2252 / GT2259 are closer matches to the one I had, the GT25 will spool at a bit higher revs than the TD04HL

Turbine TD04HL : 1.80" Exducer ; 2.05" Inducer ; 77 Trim
Compressor 16T : 1.713" Inducer ; 2.205" Exducer ; 60 Trim

EDITED: Then you talk about the stock manifold with no cats from the old TS motor... You recon the turbo will fit OK? If you refer to the 16V 1.9 diesel manifold, it could be an easier fit?

You only need to run rich when you are in boost, not small throttle (out of boost). So yes your trick of no lambda will work, but it will stuff up your consumption royally. Good for track day car, but not daily driver.

On the oil - yes keep using the same stuff, just replace quicker than normal service intervals

Last edited by Gertie; 19-05-15 at 10:16. Reason: Exhaust manifold detail
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(Post Link) post #3 of 30 Old 19-05-15 Thread Starter
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This is my first build so I'm a bit inexperienced... I was thinkig of using a turbo from a 166 2.0 v6 turbo engine,and its intercooler. Is it possible to make an exhaust manifold from a hybrid of a 156 2.0.ts and the 166's manifold? We have no jtd in Egypt only petrol cars. I'm already driving withthe lambda unplugged as of a previous problem with my wiring loom that I have mentioned in a previous thread, anyway it has become to much of a hassle and I've decided to drive with it unplugged anyway + petrol is much cheaper in Egypt... So no problem there. My leak test showed engine is in good working order but I use up quite a bit of oil. Also in N when I rev hard I have slight smoke. Are these sighns that I should check something particular to see if my engine can take a turbo? Or is this ok, since u have experienced driving a turbo ts, is there a considerable power increase for 5-6psi and how reliable is it running stock parts
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(Post Link) post #4 of 30 Old 19-05-15 Thread Starter
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Here is a video showing the smoke, please have a look http://youtu.be/s1lnuZE-EjM
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Here is a video showing the smoke, please have a look http://youtu.be/s1lnuZE-EjM
Quicker one answer right now... Petrol / over fuel smoke is borderline black, oil smoke is borderline white. The angle of the camera has to much back light.. can't tell for sure, but I believe it is petrol smoke as it is more continuous while the throttle is wide open. Oil smoke tend to puff at the moment you open throttle and burble out when you close throttle, not much in between
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Originally Posted by Fady View Post
This is my first build so I'm a bit inexperienced... I was thinkig of using a turbo from a 166 2.0 v6 turbo engine,and its intercooler. Is it possible to make an exhaust manifold from a hybrid of a 156 2.0.ts and the 166's manifold?
FIAT ePER

If you talk about the top manifold that goes from 4-into-1 then yes it should be easy to cut the flange off and put the 166 flange on and the turbo connect straight on. If you talk about the 4-into-2, then you have to combine the 2-ino-1 before you can put the turbo - this will take quite some work...

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Is there a considerable power increase for 5-6psi and how reliable is it running stock parts
Yes there is considerable power increase - I made 123wheel KW!!! And reliable too if you get the fueling right. The car I drove is still running after 75 000km with that turbo, but it had normal ECU running normal injectors with lambda and MAF, together with an extra injector running when the car is in boost - it had its own small fueling ECU that was connected to the plenum MAP (manifold absolute pressure)
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(Post Link) post #7 of 30 Old 22-05-15 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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FIAT ePER


an extra injector running when the car is in boost - it had its own small fueling ECU that was connected to the plenum MAP (manifold absolute pressure)
I heard that causes issues with the 4 piston receiving more fuel than the rest.... Is this true? Can I just leave the lambda unplugged as I I mentioned to provide enough fuel or will this cause reliability issues later on?

1 more thing, can the normal intake hoses in my car be used or do I have to buy the flashy silicone / aluminium tubes
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(Post Link) post #8 of 30 Old 22-05-15 Thread Starter
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FIAT ePER

Yes there is considerable power increase - I made 123wheel KW!!! And reliable too if you get the fueling right.
Isn't that 15 bhp more than stock? I expected more...
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123 kw at the wheel is quite a lot, we are not talking power at the flywheel here.

Also, he might be in Jo'burg which is on the highland. That means if he went down to a coastal area at sea level he would make more power.
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75evo has it right... I do live at high altitude and wheel KW is not crank KW: Assuming 12% drivetrain losses and 14% altitude losses, that is 156 crank KW, that is nearly 41% more than the OEM 110kW on the 146 2.0Ti

Also bhp is not kW: 100kW = 134 bhp and 100bhp = 74.5KW

As a comparison 156 GTA's / 3.2 GT's made around 145 wheel KW on that same dyno

Last edited by Gertie; 23-05-15 at 05:50.
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(Post Link) post #11 of 30 Old 23-05-15 Thread Starter
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Hmm ok thank u for helping me understand.. I didn't know oem measures at the flywheel not wheels. In that case congrats on a great build!
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orange injectors will be too small if you use additionnal injectors.
they are only 179cc

The MAF will also be too small for that use, it is already close to the limit.

Using the original ECU will be complicated.

Also you have to think about the oil temperature.
There is no radiator on the TS, and the temperature with the standard engine is over 115° on normal driving.

The rods are strong, even if there is no ARP.
But you don't need to ask them big RPM with a turbo.

Pistons are the weekness point if you push too much the pressure.
Remenber that all the gaps are studied with the normal temperature load from the NA engine.
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orange injectors will be too small if you use additionnal injectors.
they are only 179cc

The MAF will also be too small for that use, it is already close to the limit.

Using the original ECU will be complicated.

Also you have to think about the oil temperature.
There is no radiator on the TS, and the temperature with the standard engine is over 115° on normal driving.

The rods are strong, even if there is no ARP.
But you don't need to ask them big RPM with a turbo.

Pistons are the weekness point if you push too much the pressure.
Remenber that all the gaps are studied with the normal temperature load from the NA engine.

Ecu and maf wont face any problem unless you run over 0.6-0.7 bar pressure.You just have to find someone who can properly remap it.
There is no problem with oil temperature below 300hp.
I will agree with the rests.
The limit of pistons is 240 and still reliable.
The limit of conrods is 300.
The limit of gearbox is 350
The limit of head is 400-+.
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Ok i will re do the checking on my own MAF.
Last measurement i've made, i found 4.3V maximum output with the original engine.
I know some guys make the mapping with the MAF saturated.


About the ECU (M1.5.5), this will be long to do, the problem is that not so many people accept to map a highly modified engine with the original ECU, it's ask a lot of time.
Not impossible, but complicated situation. A lot of people prefere to go for a piggy back, because you can have a live tuning.

Last edited by Triangule; 31-05-15 at 13:55.
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Ok i will re do the checking on my own MAF.
Last measurement i've made, i found 4.3V maximum output with the original engine.
I know some guys make the mapping with the MAF saturated.


About the ECU (M1.5.5), this will be long to do, the problem is that not so many people accept to map a highly modified engine with the original ECU, it's ask a lot of time.
Not impossible, but complicated situation. A lot of people prefere to go for a piggy back, because you can have a live tuning.
Τhere are many turbo Twin Spark in Greece so there are plenty maps.A guy here who is said to be the best ecu remaper told me he only needs some hours and it will be ready because he has already done it before.Standard ecu will handle 0.6-0.7 bar pressure but not more.
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(Post Link) post #17 of 30 Old 01-06-15 Thread Starter
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So orange injectors are too small, I need the black and yellow?

Guys I have no way of remapping my ecu in Egypt, no one wants to remap the stock one. Since I only have 1 lambda sensor, I've been told my ecu will only read lean normal and rich so unplugging it will make it run as rich as possible (all the time). I don't care about fuel economy... Is it possible to just unplug the lambda? Gertie said I could... What's ur opinion?

I can source a second hand oilcooler no probs there
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So orange injectors are too small, I need the black and yellow?

Guys I have no way of remapping my ecu in Egypt, no one wants to remap the stock one. Since I only have 1 lambda sensor, I've been told my ecu will only read lean normal and rich so unplugging it will make it run as rich as possible (all the time). I don't care about fuel economy... Is it possible to just unplug the lambda? Gertie said I could... What's ur opinion?

I can source a second hand oilcooler no probs there
If you cannot remap, you'll have to stick to the injectors you have - new injectors will need remap.

As for running without lambda for richness, and me confirming that? I said it could work, if you keep the boost low. That by implication is the injectors duty cycle will not max out. But that is unknown territory as most of us add turbos to cars with OEM ECU's and other components in tact.
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Re-mapping can be done online, using simple OBD interface, software and a patch of open road. Yes it takes much more time and effort, but it's not hard to do.
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Re-mapping can be done online, using simple OBD interface, software and a patch of open road. Yes it takes much more time and effort, but it's not hard to do.
This would be possible if it was a Honda or Nissan.This is Alfa Romeo turbocharged.You need dyno and a remaper.Otherwise the car wont even start :P .
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This would be possible if it was a Honda or Nissan.This is Alfa Romeo turbocharged.You need dyno and a remaper.Otherwise the car wont even start :P .
That is why it is easier to leave the OEM ECU standard, add extra injectors into the air intake plumbing (before the throttle) that run on a fueling only ECU that purely injects on Manifold Absolute Pressure and RPM / crank angle. This way your car should always start as per normal and you can go back to N/A if you later choose to...
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(Post Link) post #22 of 30 Old 04-06-15 Thread Starter
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I've heard horror stories about burnt 4th piston from uneven distribution of fuel from the 5th injector, can anyone relate?
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If you inject evenly. i.e 1 pulse per each of the 4 cylinders - the TS inlet manifold should distribute evenly - the V6 manifold is worse for that, but not bad either. I know of self-made manifolds that don't work.

As I have mentioned I had a Turbo 2.0TS that is still going 80000km after turbo install. I know of a few more V6 turbo's also running extra injectors without issue
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(Post Link) post #24 of 30 Old 08-06-15 Thread Starter
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Ok thanks for all ur help guys
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