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(Post Link) post #1 of 29 Old 09-09-14 Thread Starter
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JTD 8V stock air mass

Hello everybody,

my name is Christopher and i'm from germany (sorry for my english). I drive an Fiat Stilo with JTD 8V and 115HP.

So i have some question about the JTD 8V and i hope you can help me.

With my tuner we want to give my car a little bit more power but always there comes smoke out of my exhaust.

intercooler = cleaned out
all air pipes = not damaged
injectors = ok
turbocharger = i think it's ok (no noise, pressure good)
Catalyzer = first cat is empty
EGR = disabled with plate
Air filter = new

We think the air mass is to low, but we don't find out why and we have no comparative

I take 4 logs with a 132HP/310Nm remap.

File1: 5. gear
File2: 5. gear
File3: 4. gear
File4: 3. gear

What do you say about the air mass? To low?

File "STOCK" is a completly stock log @4 gear.

best regards
Chris

Edit: here direct download:
http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/2..._log_file1.xls
http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/2..._log_file2.xls
http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/2..._log_file3.xls
http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/2..._log_file4.xls
http://www.danverclan.de/downloads/2..._log_STOCK.xls
Attached Files
File Type: xls 2014_09_09_stilo_log_file1.xls (30.5 KB, 19 views)
File Type: xls 2014_09_09_stilo_log_file2.xls (30.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: xls 2014_09_09_stilo_log_file3.xls (25.0 KB, 7 views)
File Type: xls 2014_09_09_stilo_log_file4.xls (24.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: xls 2014_09_01_stilo_log_STOCK.xls (25.5 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by crossshot; 09-09-14 at 09:53.
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Hi Chris, post your injection duration map.
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(Post Link) post #3 of 29 Old 09-09-14 Thread Starter
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Hi,

i can't read something inside my remap (i'm not the tuner)

Remap => PM

But attention: i use a 4 Bar MAP-Sensor from a VW Amarok!!

Last edited by crossshot; 10-09-14 at 19:04.
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Did it smoke also before remap? Do you have any video of the smoke?

I briefly checked both - logs and remap and there are no obvious errors.

You may try to increase the AFR a little bit more to check if it does any change on smoke. (althought the current AFR of ~18 isn't really low, may be the injectors flows more)
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(Post Link) post #5 of 29 Old 09-09-14 Thread Starter
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Thanks yan.ko.

I think there was a little bit smoke in stock. I drive daily vmax (i love german Autobahn) and so i don't like smoke. I won't problems with german police.

What is AFR? Please explain, then i can talk with my tuner.

Is the air mass ok for 8V JTD or is it to low?

How much is the max air pressure with stock turbocharger?

edit: i will take a video today ;-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossshot View Post
Thanks yan.ko.

What is AFR? Please explain, then i can talk with my tuner.

Is the air mass ok for 8V JTD or is it to low?

How much is the max air pressure with stock turbocharger?
AFR is air to fuel ratio. Yours looks like this
AFR.jpg

The airmass; do you have stock cooler, or FMIC? The airmass depends on the air temperature. In your logs, it matches to about 70C at 4000+rpm. So your boost temperature is rather high, or the airmass reading low.

I don't know the exact spec of turbo used in Stilo, but with this turbo type I wouldn't go over 2450mbar in peak (less in high rpm).

Last edited by yan.ko; 09-09-14 at 15:49.
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(Post Link) post #7 of 29 Old 09-09-14 Thread Starter
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Thanks for explain.

I use the stock cooler but i have not the stock front bumper (better airflow to SMIC). FMIC cooming soon.

Stilo use a Garrett GT1749V

With AFR i will talk with my tuner.
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I know it's GT1749, but there are different subtypes within this turbo family (with different trim and A/R).

Try to set the AFR map values not less than 19 and check the difference in smoke then (just to check, not saying the ones in remap are bad).
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(Post Link) post #9 of 29 Old 09-09-14 Thread Starter
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Thanks again for your informations.

The square part number for the turbocharger is 46786078

Because the intercooler: you are realy sure that the air flow is restricted by the intercooler?

I'm a little bit wondering while the air flow is over a long distance exactly the same?!

Take a look at the graphic-log - 5. gear / vmax 220km/h (speedometer) / 25C outside temperature
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File Type: jpg log_stilo.jpg (127.5 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by crossshot; 09-09-14 at 19:35.
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My tables are layed out in lambda values rather than AFR.

I think from that graph you stuck up that you are running standard boost pressure about 1.2-1.3 bar, so anything over 1 part fuel to every 18 parts air and it will smoke noticeably. The tuner needs to correctly rescale the fueling to allow you to use larger quantities of fuel rather than what they usually do, which, is to increase durations without changing the IQ (injection Quantity) values and the ECU then thinks it is injecting the same quantity of fuel.

Get an opcom or equivalent too to take logs of the fuel quantity and mass air flow, then we can see if they have correctly mapped it and what amount of fuel you could inject from the mass flow.
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I thought the same, but injection duration map is ok in the remap.

crossshot: I'm not saying the stock cooler is more restrictive, but less efficient than FMIC

Last edited by yan.ko; 10-09-14 at 19:14.
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I am the so called "tuner". Im normally used to VAG TDI Engines with Bosch EDC15 - but I started the adventure with my good old friend crossshot on JTD engine

Apart from the boost target map, the file should be clean. Most tuners in germany just multiply duration maps, but than you could buy a powerrail box as well

I saw logs from an other stock stilo 8v JTD where MAF/MAP quotient was much better than on crossshots stilo. I am wondering why this is the case. As car starts to smoke when injecting more fuel, I wont say its the MAF sensors fault.

I am used to EDC15 VAG, where all ecus measure boost pressure AND boost temperature.
Does anybody know how to enable the ecu to measure boost temperatur? 4-pin 4bar sensor is conntected and there is a pin not in use right aside the boost pressure pin of the ecu.

greetings
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I don't know guys, but from my experience I will say that 18:1 is very very lean AFR. This must be absolutely smokeless. I think there is no need to go in such extremes.

In reality even much lower AFRs will keep the car smokeless, at low rpms around 2000rpm even 15.5:1 will be smokeless, in higher revs (over 4000rpm) you need to keep it over 17:1...

But of course there are other things to keep in mind. Fuel pressure, SOI, ...

I didn't see the remap file, so I can't say more than that.
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I know the 18:1 should be fine. The point of trying to lean the mixture more is just too see if it affects the smoke density anyway. I think the problem would be somewhere else - leaking injectors, turbo burning oil - we neither know the colour of the smoke.
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(Post Link) post #15 of 29 Old 11-09-14 Thread Starter
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i have two problems:

1. black smoke (not much, but i don't like smoke)
2. not enough air mass

the turbo don't burning oil. smoke is black, not blue and the oil level is good.

injectors is a point that i will check, but it's not easy. my car is daily driven.
At the weekend i had seeing, that the fiat garage has 4 year ago 3 of 4 injectors with a wrong classification written in the ecu... i change this a the engine runs a lot better.

today i have trying another MAF but i get the same values than before.
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Is your intake manifold clogged with soot/oil?

This is often the case when you have low airflow readings.
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(Post Link) post #17 of 29 Old 11-09-14 Thread Starter
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here is an image off the intake manifold. last weekend i have try to look into it with an endoscope, but it's not possible to take it around the curves.

to much soot/oil? It's a lot of work to clean the intake manifold (timing belt, diesel pump...)

has somebody a log with a 8V JTD with good air mass?
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Intake doesn't look that bad, there are some deposits, but I would say nothing critical (unless there is something hiding "behind the corner")...

Is the smoke present everywhere or only at higher revs?

Here you have an log from stock 8V engine:
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If the MAF was faulty, it would usually read under and the ECU would back off fueling, resulting in an even leaner mixture. Have you correctly scale in the TMAP sensor for the 4 bar item? I presume he sent you the map to look at them Yanko? If you have a faulty injector or incorrect injector calibration code, that can cause smoking at low IQs because the ECU averages the fueling and ends up using a lot more in some cylinders.

Looking through the log file1, the air flow seems sensible, peeking at around 470Kg/hr top end and boost is 18psi at 4000rpm. looks like a fueling issue and I'd get deviation figures next.
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You normally do not run AFR values written in smoke-map. ECU just takes them as a limit. Saying that setting this map to 18 will result in no smoke is not true. In stock map with turbo spooled up AFR is around 20 to 21.

But at crosshots car we nearly run on the limit of smoke map. And the issue were present with stock file and stock map sensor.

I looked at an other stilos log:

Stock
[email protected] -> 1006 mg/s MAF -> means MAF/MAP ratio of 0.48 which is pretty decent.

Tuned
[email protected] -> 922 mg/s MAG -> ratio of 0.44 - which is still ok for high revs.


Crossshots Stilo is only capable of 0.4 to 0.44 (at 2500rpm), which means either a electrical issue with MAF sensor which decrease MAF measurement constantly or there is a mechanical reason for not getting enough air in or out of the engine.
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To burn an IQ of 80 without excessive smoke, you'd need about 1156 mg/stroke of air. The standard boost for a 1.9cdti is usually 21 psi (about 2400mb absolute), do you have a gt1749mv turbo? If so the lift the boost a bit more.
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(Post Link) post #22 of 29 Old 13-09-14 Thread Starter
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yan.ko it would be nice, if you send me an email to [email protected]

we have a lot of question about the edc15c7 and we hope you can help us.

tomorrow i will try i new air filter and hope this solve the air mass problem (i don't belive )
also i want to remove the (middle) silencer for better exhaust gas flow and when there is still time, i want to mount my oil cooler
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basically its one question...

Is it possible to activate on the 4-pin MAP sensor temp measurement, or is the ecu calculating with intake temp from MAF sensor?
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Quick and easy answer. Did it come with 4pin MAP from factory?


But its still doable with little workaround like I did (see my JTD thread)
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No it did not came with 4pin from factory... It was equipped with a 3-pin "solution".

So you dont see a way to activate an additional mesaurement channel? When I get it right, you swaped calibration curve and cables from MAF Sensor (Intake temp) to the 4-pin boost temperature sensor?
So there isnt anything to do in software apart from modifiy calibration line of intakte temp, enable "calculate MAF via MAP/Temperature" switch, fill out the map based smoke map, modify the boost correction from temperatur and if wanted the 2D boost target correction from temperatur (which is filled with 100% in stockfile).

Can you tell me adress temperature curve calibration of MAF-Intake sensor? I am able to find the other stock, and crossshot should be able to do electrical connection.

greatings and thx for your help
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