159 3.2 downgrade to 3.0 24v engine (450hp) - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Old 06-08-14 Thread Starter
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159 3.2 downgrade to 3.0 24v engine (450hp)

Hi all,
Im looking for your help because I dont know the 159 engine compartment. But I found one 159 3.2 Q4 with the engine destroyed and I want to see if it is possible to put my tuned engine (V6 24V turbo 450hp)

I own a 164 3lts V6 24V with a turbo upgrade holset) with forged pistons and rods, ecu management, customer headers, 440 injectors, Intercooled, etc etc... with 12-13 PSI we reach 450hp and 57Kg of torque. It is a nice car, BUT it is imposible to drive due to traction... So my dream is to see this engine on a 4x4

Forgot about the ecu etc, I should be able to start my engine because I have a dedicated ECU (MS3 Pro). My concern is about how different is the Engine and engine mounts between Alfa 164 V6 24V and 159 3.2 Q4. Also I dont see the gearbox and Im concerned because my customer exhaust headers need to surround the gearbox.

Im trying to see if this proyect is viable, I have the power plant (it is safe and with outstanding performance) however in a 2 weels traction vehicle it is difficult to drive.

My dream is to have this power plant on a 4x4 traction, but before to purchase it and try I prefer to listen you about the constraints.

Any advise will be really welcome.

Thanks
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Old 06-08-14
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the 3.2 engine in the 159 is a gm inspired unit..

its not the 3.2 busso lump as your 3.0 litre busso engine..

so at a guess not a straight swap be any means

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/engin...commodore.html
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Old 06-08-14 Thread Starter
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Great information !!! I didnt know that but the engine bay look a bit different.
Well I will need to EVALLUATE the QUAIFE differential...

On more time thank you !
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Old 07-08-14
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wasn't there a 4x4 164 at one time?

quote from wikipedia:
Quote:
In 1993, Alfa introduced a four-wheel-drive variant called the Q4 (short for Quadrifoglio 4), which was equipped with an even more powerful version of the 3.0L V6 engine. The Q4 four-wheel-drive system (Viscomatic) was co-developed with the Austrian company Steyr-Puch.[8] The system was very advanced when compared to other 4WD systems at that time. The system consisted of a viscous coupling unit, central epicyclic differential and Torsen differential in the rear. The whole system is connected to ABS and Motronic units. The power driven to the rear axle is continuously variable from 0 to 100%, so the car can be fully front- or rear-wheel-drive as conditions require. Torque is distributed between axles depending on the speed, turning radius, engine rpms, throttle position and ABS parametrics. This model was equipped with a Getrag 6-speed manual gearbox.
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Old 07-08-14
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Why don't you find a 155 Q4 instead? The engine bay will take a V6. A 156 Q4 (diesel, I believe) is very rare. The 164 Q4 is also very rare and I don't think it can take the torque. You will blow something up in the driveline for sure, after that it will be impossible to get replacement parts. None of the 4WD conversion look like simple tasks.
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Old 08-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo View Post
Why don't you find a 155 Q4 instead? The engine bay will take a V6. A 156 Q4 (diesel, I believe) is very rare. The 164 Q4 is also very rare and I don't think it can take the torque. You will blow something up in the driveline for sure, after that it will be impossible to get replacement parts. None of the 4WD conversion look like simple tasks.
the 155 q4 will be the best out of the box whit the delta runig gear is very strong only problem i can see is if the gear box will fit on the busso whit the transfer box but you can still make a adapter plate to fit it if there is space but the easy way out here is to fit a LSD dif on your current car it will help a lot putting power down
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Old 08-08-14 Thread Starter
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One more time, thank you !!!
You are right I live in Argentina, and here a 164 4x4 is veeery rare and all 155Q4 are in bad conditions most of them have several years of bad use...
The 159 is a 80.000 km unit where the owner miss the right gear box speed (it is a manual) and instead 6th it put 3rd and blowed the engine (3 rods breaked etc) ... and here it is on a really sale price.

I will try to see some improvements on Q2 or LSD diferentials, till now my gear box (164) is ok and cappable to handle that power. I have a 3 disc clutch with a clutch conversion from pull to push and an hidraulic actuator.

Here are some pics of my engine bay.

20130723_151926.jpg

20130723_152055.jpg
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Old 09-08-14
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very nice i am planing to do the same on my 156 but on low boost
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Old 09-08-14 Thread Starter
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It's runing at 12 PSIs , the secret is the engine management and the "temperature", as much colder the intake air is .... beter and safe, I added a water coolber (water-aire) a big aluminium water radiator, etc
Send me a private message if you have any doubh
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Old 09-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablob View Post
It's runing at 12 PSIs , the secret is the engine management and the "temperature", as much colder the intake air is .... beter and safe, I added a water coolber (water-aire) a big aluminium water radiator, etc
Send me a private message if you have any doubh
tanks man for the tips yes i am runig a stand alone link g4 ecu already. I like to now where is the best place to get a oil feed for the turbo ?
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Old 09-08-14
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Any details on your multiplate clutch, pablo? (manufacturer, shop, price)
Thanks
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Old 10-08-14 Thread Starter
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The Clutch is a CORTES clutch bellow you will see some picture, really nice clutch and you can drive in traffic with this clutch, it is used on cars bellow 800hp and 70kg of torque.

embragues cortes | Facebook

cost is about 1100 US dollars here.

20130924_094751.jpg
20130924_094806.jpg


Let me know if you need more info about.



About the Oil source for the turbo, I have used a Cilinder Head oil conduct (drill a hole)
In my case the Oil return from the turbo was a problem... because I have used a 12mm when the minimal is 19mm and the car started to burn oil .
Hope this helps.

Best regards
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Old 10-08-14
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i saw on the older models 24v they had a oil pressure sensor in the front head on my 156 one the hole is block by a bolt can that be used ?
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Old 10-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
i saw on the older models 24v they had a oil pressure sensor in the front head on my 156 one the hole is block by a bolt can that be used ?
There are grommets in the oil channels in the head that you can remove and screw in a oil pressure sender.

On your picture there is a grommet just below that black plastic cylinder on the back bank - This is on a TS:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...3&d=1400842765

Last edited by Gertie; 10-08-14 at 19:03.
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Old 11-08-14 Thread Starter
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Here is a picture where you can see the Turbo oil line ... and where it is plugged in into the cilinder head (see the red arrow)

aceite turbo.jpg


BTW I also have re-wired all engine bay, so if you need some help with wiring just ask and If Im able to remember I will be glad to answer

cableado.jpg


HTH

Last edited by pablob; 11-08-14 at 00:27.
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Old 11-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
There are grommets in the oil channels in the head that you can remove and screw in a oil pressure sender.

On your picture there is a grommet just below that black plastic cylinder on the back bank - This is on a TS:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...3&d=1400842765
there are 2 which one is it ?
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File Type: jpg 1 2.jpg (149.1 KB, 31 views)
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Old 11-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablob View Post
Here is a picture where you can see the Turbo oil line ... and where it is plugged in into the cilinder head (see the red arrow)

Attachment 373065


BTW I also have re-wired all engine bay, so if you need some help with wiring just ask and If Im able to remember I will be glad to answer

Attachment 373073


HTH
Tanks for the help my wiring is ready to like you i re wired the hole engine
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Old 12-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
there are 2 which one is it ?
Number 1
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Old 12-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Number 1
thank you for the help
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Old 12-08-14
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Inspiring massive project thumbs up.

A 155 is quite different than a 159 than not only the weight.

That having said. You already did modify the engine why not make the gearbox fit the engine with a proper bell house.
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Old 15-08-14 Thread Starter
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We are planing to travel and visit this car (159) with my mechanical friend, to see if this is a possible work...
I will keep in touch.
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Old 15-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablob View Post
We are planing to travel and visit this car (159) with my mechanical friend, to see if this is a possible work...
I will keep in touch.
Do you now what kind of power the 159 drive train can handle better check that first or you will be up for a lot of trouble and the be honest i love the 164
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Old 15-08-14
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My advice... don't go for an AWD route. If you have the money, rather than spend it on a 159, or parts for a Q4 conversion, flip the engine and make it RWD. Use the gearbox from a Ford Sierra, because you can remove the bellhousing and fabricate your own. Tone of parts available on ebay. Propshaft you have en ebay from a 164 Q4 for instance. As for the rear diff, I'm sure you can come up with some sort of a solution. Best for reliability would be from a BMW of course...

It's a lot of work, yes. And your car would be a Frankenstein of some sorts. But it is doable and considering that RWD beats AWD in fun factor all day long, it's a no-brainer. Plus, your 164 would be truly unique.
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Old 16-08-14 Thread Starter
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Im not totally agree with that (AWD). My opinion is that it is very difficult to put 500hp on the ground with FWD or RWD
My daily driver is an A4 3.0 TDI with DPF off and repro it reach 300hp and 620 NM of torque, let me say that it is amazing to drive this car on Quattro transmision.

BTW, I went to the city were the 159 is. It is a reall pitty what they have done with the car, all engine bay is empty part of the engine is on the back and rest is in the back seats. the gearbox is on the back too, etc etc.

It is only usefull to start a race project with a good base...

BR.
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