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Old 03-08-14 Thread Starter
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147 turbo upgrades

Hi guys,
After a long time building turbos for every one else's Alfa I have taken the plunge and bought myself a little rough diamond - 147 16v 140 bhp with a broken turbo.
Saw it on eBay a couple of months back and spoke with the seller, all sounded OK so struck a deal and it turned up on the back of a flatbed a few days later.
Initial inspection confirmed the seller had been a tiny bit liberal with his description (most noticeably saying it has FSH including clutch and cambelt, technically true but the clutch was done in 2008, and the cambelt was done about 60k ago..... ha ha) but apart from that it seems like a fairly solid little starting point.

A couple of hours rolling around on the gravel saw the turbo off and in my hands and yes indeed it is poked. But it has also been repaired at least once if not twice in the very recent past. (And subsequently failed again). Cue a bit of swearing and cursing from me.
So while I am rebuilding it to my first hybrid spec (detailed below) I need to find out the best way to check oil pressure / oil pump operation on my car. The fresh turbo will be ready in a week or so and I could do with making sure the engine isnt a total lemon before I spend any hard earned on gaskets / oil feed pipe etc. Having not got an external oil pressure gauge I don't have experience in attaching them to an engine - is the oil feed hole in the block a suitable place to join in?

Can anyone advise on the best way to check oil pressure on one of these engines? (The motor actually sounds fine when running but there was little / no oil in the turbo housings even though it had failed so Im hoping it is just the feed pipe that is blocked not the internal galleries in the block/head).
I will post up some pictures of the failed turbo and the first incarnation of the hybrid replacement, as long as the engine is OK it will be treated to a couple of different stages of hybrid over the coming months,...
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Old 03-08-14 Thread Starter
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The failed turbo


Pile of broken bits.


Oil delay to the shaft.


Compressor wheel made of the finest quality Chinesium


Someone has even put a solitary locking washer into the VNT securing bolt recess. Totally not needed!

The replacement...

Got hold of a 150 bhp unit (slightly bigger turbine wheel so better for breathing) which is in reasonably good condition


Standard 49mm compressor wheel vs the choice of 3 (Volvo GTB2056, Audi GTB2056 and VW T5 GT2056)


Alfa GTB2056 drop in billet would work, but its a bit too lavish at this stage I think...

Last edited by TDi Turbos; 03-08-14 at 17:44.
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Old 03-08-14
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blow air through the feed hose, even through the oil galleries if you want. also check the return line.

Mostly these turbos fail because the VNT gets stuck and they are overspeeding (sometimes due to burst pipes aswell), but oil problems are rather rare (never heard of any myself, unless the sump is cracked).

the GTB2056 is the turbo of choice it seems. same spool threshold as the old one, but you possibly gain 60 bhp at the top end. so it would depend how much you need to spend to fix the turbo you got....
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Old 03-08-14 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
blow air through the feed hose, even through the oil galleries if you want. also check the return line.

Mostly these turbos fail because the VNT gets stuck and they are overspeeding (sometimes due to burst pipes aswell), but oil problems are rather rare (never heard of any myself, unless the sump is cracked).

the GTB2056 is the turbo of choice it seems. same spool threshold as the old one, but you possibly gain 60 bhp at the top end. so it would depend how much you need to spend to fix the turbo you got....
Fortunately I know a man to do the turbo....
This one has most certainly failed due to an oil supply problem. See the shaft where the bearing has picked up...
The GTB2056's are really hard to come by as core units, but ultimately I think as long as the motor is healthy Ill be aiming at GTB2060VKLR for it (with one or two incarnations of hybrids along the way...)
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glad to see you delving deeper than just the turbos.
if same layout as mine you should have a fine screen filter in the feed banjo bolt at the engine block.
if the turbos still off you can disconnect injectors and crank over to see oil coming out of oil gallery in block feeding turbo, or better still if pipe still on does it come out at turbo end.
you need to get to bottom of failures with that history.
as said above checking vnt solenoid issue would be advisable before blowing your new unit, and oil supply and drain to sump pipes.
then depending on your new turbo spec logging from the start would be an idea.
il see if I can find my oil check vid for you to compare flow during cranking if any use.
sorry had a look all ive got is after cranking dribbling out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxqZ...kZ_trahvEd3bMA
and heres the screen in banjo(its fine)
Attachment 369249
also I wouldn't waste time doing various hybrids, youd be better off spending your time and effort making a nice drop in conversion for that gtb2060.
if you go ahead with hybrid, take a look at the height of the air channel feeding the vnt vanes, mine was lower with a step not sure if intentional but cast your eye over it (I opened it up to full hight of vnt ring).
also if your going 56 wheel there is a turbine with extra 1.8mm exducer that will drop in with a bit of machining to turbine housing(as im guessing rates would be very low to you)tip height is taller .
I think this was the part number 717904-0001 (or 00029) ? just bear it in mind

Last edited by sussexa; 02-12-15 at 20:05.
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Old 03-08-14 Thread Starter
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I didn't know there was an inline filter - thanks. Ill take a good look at that and possibly replace the banjo bolt entirely.
Well making hybrids is what we do so Ill be more than happy trying various flavours along the way!
The BMW turbine wheel you mention would be an upgrade, but there are bigger options than that, which will be the next incarnation. Currently Im just going to pop the 150 unit (777250-1) back together with a GTB2056 comp wheel and a cutback to see if the engine is OK, then assuming all is well I will do the next stage involving turbine upgrade, VNT pack upgrade, and probably GT20 compressor cover upgrade too with a billet comp wheel of sorts.
That will keep it going for a while till I can determine a suitable turbine housing to mate the 2060VKLR CHRA to.
This failure is pretty much 100% oil delivery related. Trouble is where the turbo has been frigged with a couple of times in the very recent past it is pretty much impossible to tell what has happened. It might not have been primed properly for all I know and failed the second it was fired up after one of it's rebuilds...

All I can realistically do is get hold of an oil pressure gauge and take a pressure reading (using a 1/8 NPT -> M12 x 1.5 adaptor) right at the oil supply hole for the turbo in the block. If there is pressure there then I will have to assume all is OK and sling it back together and hope for the best. If the pressure is worryingly low there then I will probably cut my losses and get rid of it or break it. Hope its got good pressure... Will update when I am taking the readings.
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Old 04-08-14
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The GT1749 with a 0.5mm cut back and a 41.6/56.0 will probably spool to full boost by 2500rpm with the SOI retarded low down and a little smoke. The variation in the engines means some are reluctant to hit peak until closer to 3000rpm, which, is why I prefer the smaller compressor just running 27psi. If you want to go over 27psi you really need to look at changing the TMAP striaght away as it is only scaled to 29PSI and anything over that on a standard map scaling will not register but will happily run away. You need to modify the TMAP voltage to pressure conversion to 200mb-3000mb and 0.3v-4.8v then alter the min/max voltage range table to match that.
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Old 04-08-14
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Old 05-08-14
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Actually I've done tests and logs now and the GT1756 (39.6/56.0) with a cut back turbine can achieve 28psi by 2300rpm happily without having to make lots of smoke. That's on one engine, they differ and some spool better.
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Old 07-08-14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDi Turbos View Post
That will keep it going for a while till I can determine a suitable turbine housing to mate the 2060VKLR CHRA to.
You can use the turbine housing of the Alfa GTB2056v unit, with some modifications the CHRA of the GTB2060VLKR fits.
I think the alfa GTB turbine housing is the best fit for both the 2060 and your exhaust manifold.
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Old 08-08-14 Thread Starter
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Good plan. Next to install would be the GTB2056 then, get that working and then swap the CHRA for the 2060VKLR.

I think I have found the cause of the failure - the filter in the banjo bolt was a combination of blocked and deteriorating. I have drilled it out and will give the motor a thorough flush and couple of oil filters before filling it up with some good oil and new banjo bolt. Replacement turbo is ready to fit this weekend as long as new oil feed pipe and gaskets arrive.
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Ahem........ Nutron I thought this never happened ?!?
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Old 08-08-14
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I think you miss understood
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Old 09-08-14 Thread Starter
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Thought what never happened?
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we had a discussion a while ago the screen in the banjo bolt blocking up....
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Old 09-08-14
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He has an old Alfa, doesn't count.
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Old 12-08-14
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I've fitted the GT1858(62) hybrid and it is running well but is not hitting 30psi until 3000rpm at the moment, so I need to work on the map to try to improve that. I'm also going to try a GT1758(62) hybrid to find out how the custom compressor performs on a standard turbine.
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Old 17-11-14
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any updates on progress adam ?
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Old 19-11-14 Thread Starter
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Superb timing!
Just today it has been treated to a cambelt and water pump so (once I can track down the cause of the PAS fluid leaking) it's ready to drive.
There is an electrical gremlin telling me the glow plugs are playing up, and that there's a communication error or something with I think the control module? Makes some beeps when you fire it up but turning the radio up drowns them out. Ha ha.
While the turbo was off I did a cut n shut on the cat at the front - started off by simply bashing away at the element but it became clear that it wasn't going to break up. So I cut it open, removed the element and welded it back up:

I'll get this running then start looking at a GT20 upgrade I think...
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Old 22-11-14
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The ball bearing GT2260 will spool to 20psi by 2000rpm and hit 30+psi at 2500rpm. It is probably worth going the full hog for the 22 straight off.
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Sorry to do this here but i can't send you PM. I need something similar done as you did for Clogz so if there is any chance, please email me at [email protected]
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Old 02-01-15 Thread Starter
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IT'S ALIVE!!!
So armed with a fresh breakdown cover membership I have driven my first few tentative miles in the 147, and very pleased to report it hasn't broken down.
Still got the electrical gremlins but they will get sorted in the next couple of weeks. Slow puncture in one tyre pfft nothing to worry about.
It goes really quite well considering. I have given it a bit of boot on a couple of occasions and apart from a fair bit of smoke there is nothing concerning going on. I'll need to map it obviously as it's got a little hybrid on there with larger turbine, larger compressor etc, and the home brew decat but for now all is good and I am officially a 100% bona fida AlfaOwner!

Anybody want to buy a Seat Ibiza?
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Old 03-01-15
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if it had a failed turbo, the smoke might be from leftover oil in the exhaust,
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what specs your turbo ? someone may be able to help out with vnt maps if specs are pretty close.
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I had thought the smoke might be oil residue but it's black so fuel related. I'm putting it down to the decat and slight change of turbo spec upsetting things.
If you roll on the throttle, pretty much any revs, it picks up really nicely and is more responsive than my old car. But if you are steaming on and do a gear change under power and load the transient lag is awful. Truly awful. It takes probably a full second or more to come back to life after an up shift. But I recon a good map will cute that.

The turbo is still the little GT17 unit, there are 2 versions to fit the 147 - one has a marginally bigger turbine than the other but interestingly a smaller compressor. I used the larger turbine and machined in a 56 mm compressor wheel from a GTB2056 Volvo unit. The idea was to do it on a shoestring as I didn't know if the engine was poked at that time. Pleased to say so far so good and I'll get the gremlins sorted out then probably see Gus for some mapping.

Where the BMW boys have realoem.com is there any online resource for Alfa parts? I have noticed my battery clamp is missing and the bolt/stud broken so need to address that pretty sharpish.
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