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(Post Link) post #1 of 39 Old 22-06-14 Thread Starter
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Controlling the twinturbo setup ( Lancia/saab )

Lets ask this here too.

I have had this twinturbo setup for almost a year know.
but I havent used it ...

I was thinking, that I will put it to my "every day" car ( 156 sportwagon q4 )

The manifold goes easily, exhaust can be done, problem might be the control... ?

Vacuum controls the flow between the small and large turbo; well I could use the normal

vacuum control there, right... ? so when the boost is right, it will open more and more the

flow to the large, same as opening the vnt as standard....

the large turbo itself has another vacuum control .

and those ttid ecus has 2 controls for the boost, I only have 1 .

Could the large turbo control problem be solved, just by changing the vacuum control

to an normal pressure control, and put there like 1.2 -1.3 bar pressure clock to control it.

After that the normal wastegate opens and boost is that ...

I think it should work nicely, but what you guys think ?

16vt / 190hp / 400nm / 3300rpm
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i have also been toying with this idea for a while...

and same as you control will be an issue ......

although be aware the manifold may need porting as the ports on the ttid head are very small.

i think you are on the right sort of lines for control.

but

vnt fails to safe ie open no boost

so on low revs youll not be able to control it unless you flipped the actuator upside down as you are now using boost not vacuum and electronic control. so the effect needs to be the opposite to get the same end result
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You have a few options, you could go the full monty and get vacuum pump, solenoid and additional controller, then make a completely independent vacuum control system for the large turbo. I did this using an MF2 fuel injector controller from Aquamist and it worked fine to completely control the single turbo on my car.

You could as you say modify the actuator and linkage to just work with apressure actuator with stops to control the range you want the turbo to use.

Or you could lock the VNT in place on the big turbo and fit a large external waste gate to bypass just the larger feeder turbo.

The middle option would be cheapest, the last option would likely offer best performance because the restriction of two turbines would be removed and the first option would require no further modification to the turbos.
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in these there is already a spring operated control valve set for a certain pressure to swop over the turbos this would also need to be taken into account
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Are you using the combined manifold from the Bi-turbos that has valves in the exhaust side too? If you are looking at those I'd not bother as they run rediculously hot. It would not be worth fitting those in standard setup, the large compressor has a 39mm inducer good for only about 220bhp. If you were going to use it you sould look at changing both compressors for more sensible sizes.
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(Post Link) post #6 of 39 Old 01-07-14 Thread Starter
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the large compressor is 58,1mm exducer and its billet. should do more, than 220...

the large turbo is not vnt, its normal wastegate turbo controlled with vacuum.

So again...

the control between turbos are vacuum ( can I use one what i already have ? )

and ofcourse the exhaust gas will flow from small to large, and after there is
enough pressure ( small one 1.2 -1.3 bar as standard 16v boost )
it will open the gate to the bigger one..

and the bigger one just keeps the pressure to clock pressure ( maybe 1.3bar clock )
so I only need to chance that.

what kind of heat are we talking about ?
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it defo does more than that ive seen a ttid run 237hp reducing boost from 2bar to 1.5hp.... so imagine if they left the boost are raised it along with fuel
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(Post Link) post #8 of 39 Old 02-07-14 Thread Starter
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yes, those are more like the numbers what I have seen..

257hp if remember correctly, was one lancia delta..
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It is a 39mm / 58mm and the inducer is the real limiting factor for hp, the ratio of inducer to exducer effects the spool rate, so that should spool well from low down.
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(Post Link) post #10 of 39 Old 03-07-14 Thread Starter
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If you compare the compressors from gtb2056 and this, there isnt much difference,
and gtb is good for 250+

the new hyundai/ kia 2.2 crdi 197hp model has gtb1752 and goes with map to 230+ hp
ok, the compressor wheel is 9+0 new design, and extended lip, but still...

you get my point ..
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That doesn't mean it is safe to those levels, I can make a 1.9CDTI with GT1749 on the vectra give 380lbft, 220bhp, I have done! But I assure you, it is work well outside it's long term reliable parameters.

If you want to go to 250bhp on a 1.9 or 2 ltr CDTI then you should be looking at around a 42mm inducer and either a trimmed GT17 turbine or a larger turbine.

Larger turbines allow you to reduce pumping losses to get more power to the wheels and reduce EGTs but they don't make the compressor flow more air.
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(Post Link) post #12 of 39 Old 03-07-14 Thread Starter
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Maybe You are right, but..

If manufactures uses 52mm exducer for 200hp Cars , there should not be problem

For me using 58mm billet compressor for +220 car.

As everything over that is just a bonus.

Anyone know how big is the turbine on the ttid model ?
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(Post Link) post #14 of 39 Old 03-07-14 Thread Starter
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the setup is a little different on my turbos..

I dont have vacuum clock controlling on the cold ( compressor ) side.

there is a self controlled flap inside the boostpipe..


other than that, to my ears this sounds like a worth to try.

but the turbine size is still ?
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the turbo is rs2 so do somesearching thats all i found in the 5seconds i looked
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The amount of enginepower is largely dependent on the turbine side.

So if 220hp is the maximum safe power for a GT17 hybrid with compressor "x" (which I believe is Nutron constantly referring to), then with a decently sized turbine you could be aiming at 20+ hp more I know from personal experience.

Same compressor, same boost pressure, but much better cylinder filling and thus more power.

GTB2056v can do 240-250 hp safely with 39mm compressor inducer. Several guys are running this for years almost every day of the year (including me).

So, back to topic, I also believe around 250hp is possible with the BW biturbo.

147 JTDm 16v - GTB2060v - 329 hp/578 Nm
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TTID EGR Delete & remap - done

from a forum i mod.....
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It's a 39.6mm inducer on the gbt2056.

A larger turbine would alow for lower boost temps, lower cylinder temps and potentially more effective exchange of exhaust gas with a fresh charge.

The exducer size of the compressor does not influence the max flow of a compressor anywhere near as much as the inducer.

I wouldn't ask more than 27psi from a 40mm inducer.
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There are quite a few GTB2056s running on 2bar boost (29psi)... very reliably...
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Good for them, I sell these things and need to ensure they have long lives.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribesman View Post
there are quite a few gtb2056s running on 2bar boost (29psi)... Very reliably...
+1

This is dictated by the pressure ratio combined with mass flow.
Pointless to judge only a single factor imo!

Last edited by JS JTD; 04-07-14 at 16:45.
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I've run over 224WHP with a trimmed GT17 turbine on the same compressor but the thrust bearing was more worn than would be expected after a six month period. The compressor can only move a set amount of air for a given shaft speed, regardless of turbine. I'm basing what I say on having used that compressor size myself.
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(Post Link) post #23 of 39 Old 05-07-14 Thread Starter
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Well, those 224whp figures are really good..

I really need to chance the turbo, because The standard one is giving up.
I have also one 2256 from 2.4 20v model and one spare standard one.

Maybe I'll but The 2256 in There, isnt that quite easy to fit .. ?

And I dont have too much time, my holiday is ending next week.
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youve also got to consider the manifold design which is different ( and better ) on the alfas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutron View Post
I've run over 224WHP with a trimmed GT17 turbine on the same compressor but the thrust bearing was more worn than would be expected after a six month period. The compressor can only move a set amount of air for a given shaft speed, regardless of turbine. I'm basing what I say on having used that compressor size myself.
I'm not suprised about that worn bearing.

Thrust force is a result of pressure difference between compressor and turbine side, and with the above you will be looking at a massive EMP.
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