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Cooper Rings

Anybody heard of Cooper Rings before? You send in the block to have a recess cut out of the piston sleeve and a ring of some sort will be fitted in order for you to eliminate the use of a head gasket. Does anybody have any knowledge on this or any experience with either using or fitting this modification?

Thank you
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how will you seal off the water jackets and oil galleries running from the block to the head?
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Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
how will you seal off the water jackets and oil galleries running from the block to the head?
Exactly what I want to know??? I mean if you can eliminate the headgasket then you don't need a serious mill/skim to increase compression ratio. You can merely do this BUT I spoke to Alan Y Brink, Pta. He used to do these mods, note: "Used to". He stopped doing it as he had endless problems with some of the cars... You could boost alot more without failing gaskets or run higher ratios without blowing gaskets but a lot of the motors had problems after this was done.
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Oom Dawie still makes use of embedded rings in his big-bore and highly turbo'ed conversions, but he still use gaskets. And no he will not tell you all about it - he is a bit secretive (and rightly so) about it.

If you want a stronger gasket and/or lower/increase the CR - go for a custom made copper gasket with your height in mind

Then if you are looking for OEM sizing - there is not much wrong with Victor Reinz gaskets...

Last edited by Gertie; 18-06-14 at 07:08.
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think they were called wills rings and yes used them is cossies a lot ..

standard gasket takes care of everything except compression rings which the wills rings replaced..

I ended up though wire ringing the block instead which was much easier and nearly as effect but loads more effect than head gasket alone..

http://www.tss.trelleborg.com/remote...ings_gb_en.pdf
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Thanks for the info guys I will have a look into these. Just as a matter of interrest: How much compression ratio can a standard headgasket take? I know that's asking a broad question but in general terms?
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Well OEM internals can handle 0.4 bar turbo boost, thus multiply 1.4 bar x 10.5CR - that is an effective CR of 14.7 - (that is for modern TS)

NORD usually drop to 9 CR for 0.4 boost: 1.4 * 9 = 12.6 effective CR

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This is awesome information! Thank you Gertie! No matter how high the CR is on N/A tuned, you will never pop a gasket then, right?
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Originally Posted by AOChris View Post
This is awesome information! Thank you Gertie! No matter how high the CR is on N/A tuned, you will never pop a gasket then, right?
No, not likely - just make sure it is of decent quality and new to start with and that the head and block is straight - you should be fine.
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I'm going to be pulling the motor and tranny not too long from now. All gaskets and seals will be changed, thorough clean and respraying the engine compartment. I'm going to be carrying out the upgrades according to "How to Powertune an Alfa Romeo" whilst I'm at it and was concerned about compression ratios with the stock gasket, when someone mentioned cooper rings

P.S. @ Gertie. Do you race/use to race your station wagon? I hit the brakes from 140 to about 40 real hard and to my suprise the brakes started moaning at me... I mean, I know you can't compare the GTV with the 156 but Joh!!!! The brakes suck!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOChris View Post
I'm going to be pulling the motor and tranny not too long from now. All gaskets and seals will be changed, thorough clean and respraying the engine compartment. I'm going to be carrying out the upgrades according to "How to Powertune an Alfa Romeo" whilst I'm at it and was concerned about compression ratios with the stock gasket, when someone mentioned cooper rings
As I have mentioned just be sure your head and block is FLAT then the gasket should survive.

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P.S. @ Gertie. Do you race/use to race your station wagon? I hit the brakes from 140 to about 40 real hard and to my suprise the brakes started moaning at me... I mean, I know you can't compare the GTV with the 156 but Joh!!!! The brakes suck!
Yes I used to trackday my 3.0V6 156 SW, before I bought my racer(s) (I managed a 1:19.2 Zwartkops time - 2.0TS Racer best time 1:18.0). I used to have Yellow EBC pads, Powerbrake grooved discs, Endless S-four brake fluid and braided hoses THEN the brakes worked GREAT. But now I have plain Ferodo's in, I have not bled my brake lines in a long time and I overcooked it a bit the other day My brakes are bad now too - I will bleed it sometime this week / weekend and I am sure it will be better
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When I take the engine out, I'll send both the block and the head to be matched and skimmed to be absolutely flat!

So did you do a transplant from a GTV or did you bore the 2.5 out? I honestly don't know the difference between a good and bad lap time around Zwartkops I'll time my next run out and compare it to yours above. When I still had the GTV 3.0, I could do like 6 - 8 laps around Zwartkops before the brakes start to cook. Is the above brake upgrade better than that?
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Perfect!

My 3.0 comes from a 166. 1:26 is a fairly quick time for a road going 2L Turbo / 3L NA, for 1:23 you'll start needing semi-slicks and decent brakes. 1:21's you'll need better shocks. For 1:19's a Q2 diff was needed. 1:18.0 in my 2.0TS racer is possible due to shedding 350kg, very decent shocks, 305mm upgraded brakes, bit uprated engine.

The brake pads is the single most important part in decent brakes setup - a 8 pot caliper with OEM grade pads will cook easier than a single pot caliper with DECENT pads. Next up is decent fluid, then braided hoses.

Grooved disc's will help with OEM or with DECENT pads if your fluid has never cooked before. So it will bite nicely UNTIL the 1st time you cook your fluid due to enthusiastic drive with normal pads and/or normal fluid.

See the results from a public "race" day (Got Balls Racing). The top 5 guys where raw race cars. The Neo 1 is a Arial Atom (open frame) type car. AFAIK all the cars up to the Mini had semi-slicks
Attached Files
File Type: pdf GBR_Overall.pdf (179.3 KB, 3 views)

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The 3.0 mod, I can immagine it slaps straight in? What are you doing about the fueling or is that just as simple as using a different ECU? I might want to do this because I am seriously fond of the low end torque in the GTV that the 2.5 156's lack! I can also see this mod being a hell of a lot cheaper than a GTA motor

I will replace the pads then, I often use the 156 to do run arounds. Is there any drawbacks with performance pads like severe squeeling or needing to heat up before working, ect? Can you recommend a brand and were they can be obtained?

Can you please advise on dot 5 brake fluid aswell? The braided hoses I'll have made up for front and back. Disks at the back I can imagine leaving stock because the rear brakes hardly ever work nearly as efficient as the front.

So as a conclusion:

Performance Pads
Grooved disks
Braided Hoses
Brake Fluid
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Giovanni at Alfia Auto in Wynberg dropped the 3.0 in my SW - he reckons it was pretty straight-up yes - he drives a 3.0 156 Saloon

ATS Motorsport made my braided hoses for just on R1000.00 for the 4 set.
You need DOT4 or DOT5.1, NOT DOT5 - that is corrosive to normal brake lines. If you go DOT5.1 you must flush out the DOT4. I suggest taking a high-spec DOT4 (outperform 5.1), then you can systematically put it in. ATS stock Ferodo Formula and Super Formula DOT4 The Silver bottle boils at 310C and cost R150 the black bottle Super Formula boils at 330C and cost 3 times the price. The silver bottle is my fluid of choice for racer and SW.
Ferodo Racing Official Website - Brake Fluids

ATS stocks Ferodo DS2500 pads, but I think I bought their last 156 pads, the market is too small for them to stock it, just ask. EBC Yellow is otherwise the best bang-for-buck (call Formula Frictionin Edenvale or a place in Randburg I now forgot the name of). No Squeal, little dust, decent brakes over wide temperature range. Also EBC grooved disks seems better in other's opinions than Powerbrake in PTA. I like both.
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Awesome! So fueling? Are you using aftermarket or did you use the ecu from the 166? (I wonder if the wiring loom is similar that you can simply swop around the ecu)

This is all awesome information that can be applied to all cars. I'm seriously going to look into a brake upgrade for the 156!

Thanks Gertie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOChris View Post
Awesome! So fueling? Are you using aftermarket or did you use the ecu from the 166? (I wonder if the wiring loom is similar that you can simply swop around the ecu)

This is all awesome information that can be applied to all cars. I'm seriously going to look into a brake upgrade for the 156!

Thanks Gertie
ONLY replace the complete ENGINE, There are some small auxiliaries differences to take care of (plumbing mainly), but the core (ECU / looms / fuel lines / manifolds) you keep 156.

It is worth the upgrade. Talk to Giovanni / Clayton

E-CAR ALFIA AUTO
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Fantastic!!! I will speak to them regarding the upgrade however I would like to do it myself. Is there a noticable difference?
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18% more kw, is nice, but the 24% more torque is nicer
156 2.5:
Power Output [email protected]
Torque [email protected]
166 3.0:
Power Output [email protected]
Torque [email protected]
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