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(Post Link) post #1 of 32 Old 10-06-14 Thread Starter
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147 1.9 16v m-jet gtb2056v

Hi guys,

I would like to show my fitment of the Brera's GTB2056V on my 70,000Km engine.
The car is a 147 m-jet 16v from 2003:

Mods in the car::

- GTB2056v turbo balanced and modified intake
- Custom exhaust manifold "big bore"
- stainless steel downpipe 2.5"
- All stainless steel exhaust 2.5"
- Modified intake with 120-80mm intake to airbox
- stainless steel tubes from turbo to intake
- EGR delete
- Reinforced clutch
- Short belt to eliminate air conditioning
- custom map

Stainless steel 316 exhaust manifold:
IMG_0820.jpg

IMG_0822.jpg

3D Laser cutted 4 in 1
IMG_0809.jpg

The template:
IMG_0950.jpg

IMG_0953.jpg

Stainless steel back silencer
Foto0249.jpg

Stainless steel 2,5" central fake silencer
Attachment 342569

Attachment 342577

Last edited by Black hawk; 10-06-14 at 22:15.
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Nice work

p.s: it looks similar to my setup
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(Post Link) post #3 of 32 Old 11-06-14 Thread Starter
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The engine with manifold
IMG_0964.jpg

EGT gauge
IMG_1024.jpg
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Very handsome work you made there!!

The manifold headers look quite big to me, did you make the cross sectional area bigger than the ports in the head or is it the same?

And are you still in the building phase or is the engine running with the GTB already?
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Thanks
The manifold looks very big in the engine bay but it has the same inner sectional area of the exhaust ports in the head.
And yes I'm already running from about 8 month with 100 mm3 IQ, but now with uprated injectors I want more..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black hawk View Post
Thanks
The manifold looks very big in the engine bay but it has the same inner sectional area of the exhaust ports in the head.
And yes I'm already running from about 8 month with 100 mm3 IQ, but now with uprated injectors I want more..
How much EGT do you have with 100 mm3 ?
I assume you have a no-smoke mapping with 3000 mbar turbo pressure?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS JTD View Post
How much EGT do you have with 100 mm3 ?
I assume you have a no-smoke mapping with 3000 mbar turbo pressure?
With first exhaust pipe under the engine from 63,5 mm, the central pipe from 60 mm, the rest of pipe stock and the free flow fake back silencer I had 880C in 4 gear @ 5000 rpm and 930C in 5 gear @ 5000 rpm. Then with the central pipe from 63,5 mm I had 850C in 4 gear @ 5000 rpm and 905C in 5 gear @ 5000 rpm. Now I'm ready to fit the complete free flow exhaust without any restriction, all from 63,5 mm and I'll see how much EGT I'll have.

The relative turbo pressure is set at 2000 mbar all the way up 2500 to 4500 rpm till 1850 mbar at 5000 rpm. The injection is set to 100 mm3 all the way from 2000 to 5000 rpm.

Last edited by Black hawk; 13-06-14 at 06:15.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black hawk View Post
With first exhaust pipe under the engine from 63,5 mm, the central pipe from 60 mm, the rest of pipe stock and the free flow fake back silencer I had 880C in 4 gear @ 5000 rpm and 930C in 5 gear @ 5000 rpm. Then with the central pipe from 63,5 mm I had 850C in 4 gear @ 5000 rpm and 905C in 5 gear @ 5000 rpm. Now I'm ready to fit the complete free flow exhaust without any restriction, all from 63,5 mm and I'll see how much EGT I'll have.
Thanks, this is very valuable information!
Just to be sure, starting at the turbo:
1.downpipe
2.front pipe
3.catalyst
4.centre pipe
5.backbox

So, first you had 1-3 in 63.5mm and 4-5 in 60mm.
Then you changed 4 also in 63.5mm and EGT is 30 deg lower.

I'm suspecting my exhaust more and more for the high EGT that I have.
The Ragazzon central GTA pipe that I have is 60mm outside, but internally it is made smaller at the ends of the silencer. It could be 50-55mm internal.
Maybe I cut the silencer out, or have the complete pipe made in 63.5mm.

Quote:
The relative turbo pressure is set at 2000 mbar all the way up 2500 to 4500 rpm till 1850 mbar at 5000 rpm. The injection is set to 100 mm3 all the way from 2000 to 5000 rpm.
Ok, then you'll probably have some smoke past 4500 rpm.
I my case injection is ramped down more past that rpm, but I maintain good power up to 4700 rpm.

147 JTDm 16v - GTB2060v - 329 hp/578 Nm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS JTD View Post
Thanks, this is very valuable information!
Just to be sure, starting at the turbo:
1.downpipe
2.front pipe
3.catalyst
4.centre pipe
5.backbox

So, first you had 1-3 in 63.5mm and 4-5 in 60mm.
Then you changed 4 also in 63.5mm and EGT is 30 deg lower.

I'm suspecting my exhaust more and more for the high EGT that I have.
The Ragazzon central GTA pipe that I have is 60mm outside, but internally it is made smaller at the ends of the silencer. It could be 50-55mm internal.
Maybe I cut the silencer out, or have the complete pipe made in 63.5mm.

Ok, then you'll probably have some smoke past 4500 rpm.
I my case injection is ramped down more past that rpm, but I maintain good power up to 4700 rpm.
It is incorrect.. first I had 1-2 in 63,5mm, 3 in 60mm, 4 in 54mm (stock) and 5 in 60mm
Then I changed only 3 in 63,5mm and EGT are 30 deg lower.
Now I'm changing 4 and 5 and we'll see.

Now I have 1470 mg/hub of airmass at 4970 rpm with 100mm3 and it is quite smokeless.

I've made some exhaust manifold for my customers and the EGT are falling down compared to the cast iron stock one with 38mm 4 in 1.

I'm also preparing a 70mm pipe and the difference compared with the 60mm is about 50 deg less.

Tomorrow I'll put a pic of 63,5mm centre pipe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black hawk View Post
It is incorrect.. first I had 1-2 in 63,5mm, 3 in 60mm, 4 in 54mm (stock) and 5 in 60mm
Then I changed only 3 in 63,5mm and EGT are 30 deg lower.
Now I'm changing 4 and 5 and we'll see.
I see. In my case 1 is 60mm, 2-3 is 63.5mm, 4 is 60mm with silencer and 5 is 63.5mm.
1 will be replaced in the next days for 63.5mm, and 4 should also be enlarged.

Quote:
Now I have 1470 mg/hub of airmass at 4970 rpm with 100mm3 and it is quite smokeless.
That is impressive!
I have less than 1200 mg there. How much do you have at 4000 rpm?

Quote:
I've made some exhaust manifold for my customers and the EGT are falling down compared to the cast iron stock one with 38mm 4 in 1.

I'm also preparing a 70mm pipe and the difference compared with the 60mm is about 50 deg less.

Tomorrow I'll put a pic of 63,5mm centre pipe.
Somehow I've never seen a comparison of a modifed cast manifold with a tubular one, so I always had my doubts about the added value.
If it really improves spoolup and EGT it can be worth the costs.

With 70mm pipe you mean the full exhaust?
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1470mg at 5000rpm? That is very hard to believe with only 2850mbar pressure.

You would have to have 95% volmetric efficiency to achieve that. And we know that VE falls quite rapidly after 4500rpm. I would say VE is maybe 85% at 5000rpm on a good day... anything over 1300mg/hub is not possible with boost that low.
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Quote:
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1470mg at 5000rpm? That is very hard to believe with only 2850mbar pressure.

You would have to have 95% volmetric efficiency to achieve that. And we know that VE falls quite rapidly after 4500rpm. I would say VE is maybe 85% at 5000rpm on a good day... anything over 1300mg/hub is not possible with boost that low.
I think you are right and that it was only a error in the program, with 2.3 [email protected] rpm I have about 1450mg or something little. Today with very hot temperature outside I just reached 1500mg with 2.5 bar. That's very low, also Vgt was closer than normally.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS JTD View Post
I see. In my case 1 is 60mm, 2-3 is 63.5mm, 4 is 60mm with silencer and 5 is 63.5mm.
1 will be replaced in the next days for 63.5mm, and 4 should also be enlarged.



That is impressive!
I have less than 1200 mg there. How much do you have at 4000 rpm?



Somehow I've never seen a comparison of a modifed cast manifold with a tubular one, so I always had my doubts about the added value.
If it really improves spoolup and EGT it can be worth the costs.

With 70mm pipe you mean the full exhaust?
Yes I mean the full exhaust except the downpipe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
1470mg at 5000rpm? That is very hard to believe with only 2850mbar pressure.

You would have to have 95% volmetric efficiency to achieve that. And we know that VE falls quite rapidly after 4500rpm. I would say VE is maybe 85% at 5000rpm on a good day... anything over 1300mg/hub is not possible with boost that low.
I don't know Tribesman.. take a look at this log of May, a night with about 12 deg outside.
In each log I have high value of airmass over 4000 rpm

log 15.05.14.JPG
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Originally Posted by Black hawk View Post
I don't know Tribesman.. take a look at this log of May, a night with about 12 deg outside.
In each log I have high value of airmass over 4000 rpm

Attachment 343849
Hmm, this doesn't make sense to be honest.

Your [email protected] rpm is lower than at 5000 rpm while you have less boost there.
I suspect something is wrong either with your maf or the conversion tables...
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Well you just can't blindly believe every number your ECU throws at you... if results are not logical, then you have to check what is going on.

Your airflow seems normal up to 4000rpm, then it just jumps up 15% for no obvious reason.

This is probably something related to measurement of airflow. Either MAF is not calibrated properly inside the ECU, or the airflow through the MAF is not homogeneous and thus giving faulty readings...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
Well you just can't blindly believe every number your ECU throws at you... if results are not logical, then you have to check what is going on.

Your airflow seems normal up to 4000rpm, then it just jumps up 15% for no obvious reason.

This is probably something related to measurement of airflow. Either MAF is not calibrated properly inside the ECU, or the airflow through the MAF is not homogeneous and thus giving faulty readings...
I agree with you but I have attached this log in order to have your opinion about.
I haven't modify the liearizzation of the maf and it is the stock one.
As soon as I finish the new airbox, I'll made some new logs.
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Quote:
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Hmm, this doesn't make sense to be honest.

Your [email protected] rpm is lower than at 5000 rpm while you have less boost there.
I suspect something is wrong either with your maf or the conversion tables...
As I promise this is the 63,5mm central pipe still finish to weld properly.

IMG_1035.jpg
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OK, now I get it. You are running a stock MAF, which is limited to 620kg/h.

In your car you hit that limit just around 4000rpm. (4000rotations/min*2inj/rotation*1300mg/inj*60min/hour) == ~620kg/h.

After you hit that limit, ECU switches off the MAF readings, and starts to calculate the airflow through the programmed volumetric efficiency map inside the ECU. But that map is not specified very precisely for RPMs higher than 4000rpm... thus the airflow calculation is quite off...

You need to upgrade your MAF for one that can read at least up to 800kg/h. That one will be good for up to 1650mg/inj at 4000rpm or 1330mg/inj at 5000rpm...
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Quote:
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OK, now I get it. You are running a stock MAF, which is limited to 620kg/h.

In your car you hit that limit just around 4000rpm. (4000rotations/min*2inj/rotation*1300mg/inj*60min/hour) == ~620kg/h.

After you hit that limit, ECU switches off the MAF readings, and starts to calculate the airflow through the programmed volumetric efficiency map inside the ECU. But that map is not specified very precisely for RPMs higher than 4000rpm... thus the airflow calculation is quite off...

You need to upgrade your MAF for one that can read at least up to 800kg/h. That one will be good for up to 1650mg/inj at 4000rpm or 1330mg/inj at 5000rpm...
What do you think about running maf off like I'm doing? I can't find a Maf which can be suitable for 1450mg/inj at 5000rpm.
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Not ideal setup IMO... I would always prefer running with MAF. It gives you much better control over the engine that way...

If you can't find MAF that is suitable to you, take the next best thing and mount it into bigger MAF housing...
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Hawk your engine looks beautifull
I'm looking to buy a exhaust manifold to fit my 1.9 jtd 16v
Do you make them ?
Thanks
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Chilling

Here is what one of my partners did for one of my Alfas a while ago...

Exhaust manifold for BlackAngels Alfa QVD
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both manifold are looking good!
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