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(Post Link) post #1 of 44 Old 09-04-14 Thread Starter
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fuel cutting gtv v6 turbo

Hello, everybody.
From france ( my english is not as good as I'd like).
Here we have some kind of Alfa too -))
A short intro before "the" question.
Gtv v6 turbo, 1997, 205000 km on the odo,
Td05, zamuner chips, 240cc injectors, a lot of work beein done since I bought it.
1.2 on the mano (hks bc does tell the same, but I know, it's an old one)
It runs, lucky I am, and sooo good.
But I can not stay foot on the ground more than 5 sec
It cuts.
Hard cutting, and each time I try, 0.5 is the limite before I reset...
So, I know some of you guys have the hability to tell me where is the damn fuel cut
I learns it's in the motro chip, and not, as I was thinkin, in the ezk.
But where?
And why?
1.2 mean 1.45 with the stock turbo. The airflow is quite the same, so it's good.
That's, I mean, a sort of protection.
But...
I'm ttying to run 1, 3 bar or more, and stay foot to the ground to 7200rpm, limit of the zamuner chips.
I'm trying to hunt every leaks as I can, but the cutting is driving me mad

Could you help me?
Thanks, and, again, sorry for my english
Boz
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Hi,

yes, the boostlimiter is on the ML4.1 chip and cuts fuel @ ~1.4 bar boost with the original T25 Turbo.
Did you have the original TD05H-12B from the Alfa 164 installed ?

I change to the TD05H too but i had it upgraded with a bigger EVO3Big16G compressor wheel.
And i have a ML4.1 chip with removed boostlimiter installed and running 1.3 bar max. boost.

Did you have a EPROM burner ?
You can buy one for ~50 Euros on E-Bay.
With it you can read and write EPROMS very easy and i can send you the ML4.1 file with removed boostlimiter.

bye
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(Post Link) post #3 of 44 Old 10-04-14 Thread Starter
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Ohhh!!
So nice answer!
Sweet screen that shows me exactly what i hoped in my dreams!

I can erase, and burn a new ".bin"in a 27c257 waiting for it a long time ago.
Of course, i thank you a million time, and I will.
But almost the most important: where is that line? In the hex? I can make my own chip by compare 3 or 4 stage of chips ( powerchip vs stock vs zamuner, for example) but I can only read fuel and ingnition tabs, nothing more, because they are the hugest, smaller tabs are unscalable ( for me, without a ".xdf")
Could you contact me or send at boz.hunter (at) free.fr?
Thanks for that, and for the rest of my hugly questions.
Boz
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Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
Hi,

yes, the boostlimiter is on the ML4.1 chip and cuts fuel @ ~1.4 bar boost with the original T25 Turbo.
Did you have the original TD05H-12B from the Alfa 164 installed ?

I change to the TD05H too but i had it upgraded with a bigger EVO3Big16G compressor wheel.
And i have a ML4.1 chip with removed boostlimiter installed and running 1.3 bar max. boost.

Did you have a EPROM burner ?
You can buy one for ~50 Euros on E-Bay.
With it you can read and write EPROMS very easy and i can send you the ML4.1 file with removed boostlimiter.

bye
And, yes, i bought and renew an original H-12B.
As I met issues with an awful lag due to improper setting of wastegate, I decided not to transform it in 16 or 20G, as I could when renew.
Before that mitsu, I bought the car with an hybrid between a t25 and a supercharger gt28 (china...) so big!! 73 mm intake!! It started to blow at 4000 rpm, inusable as a daily car's setting.
Have you info for thos who'd try? Lag or not?
Thanks again...
Boz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
Hi,

yes, the boostlimiter is on the ML4.1 chip and cuts fuel @ ~1.4 bar boost with the original T25 Turbo.
Did you have the original TD05H-12B from the Alfa 164 installed ?

I change to the TD05H too but i had it upgraded with a bigger EVO3Big16G compressor wheel.
And i have a ML4.1 chip with removed boostlimiter installed and running 1.3 bar max. boost.

Did you have a EPROM burner ?
You can buy one for ~50 Euros on E-Bay.
With it you can read and write EPROMS very easy and i can send you the ML4.1 file with removed boostlimiter.

bye
And, yes, i bought and renew an original H-12B.
As I met issues with an awful lag due to improper setting of wastegate, I decided not to transform it in 16 or 20G, as I could when renew.
Before that mitsu, I bought the car with an hybrid between a t25 and a supercharger gt28 (china...) so big!! 73 mm intake!! It started to blow at 4000 rpm, inusable as a daily car's setting.
Have you info for thos who'd try? Lag or not?
Thanks again...
Boz
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I will send you a E-Mail....
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Perhaps too late to answer.
As far as I know ML4.1 does not sense intake pressure (there is no MAP sensor in the plenum), it only knows the air flow. So if it cuts it's because the flow reaches the max admitted value. And if the max value was reached this probably means the AFM is saturated so ML is not be able to adjust injection time any longer, it does know the flow.
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It has a MAP sensor. Just not the "usual" one, like most cars have where it has a vacuum nipple, which goes directly to the intake tact. It has a MAP sensor (aka altitude sensor) which senses the altitude via resistance. And based on that, it uses a preset value for every 100m of altitude above/below sea level, which it then sends a signal to the ecu, proportionate to the altitude value...
$T2eC16R,!%29!E9s2fCHBzBRicF,%28Jiw~~60_35.JPG

Fuel cuts on an ML4.1 occur because the engine thinks it is knocking/pinging, so it protects itself. This happens when:
- Turbo pressure exceeds 1.4bar (stock turbo, less for a bigger turbo). For this, there can be numerous reasons. Manual boost controller opened up too much, bad wastegate actuator, bad internal wastegate (not opening freely), bad pierburg valve, incorrectly plumbed vacuum lines on the pierburg valve, bad or splintered vacuum lines
- Sensor fault. For this it can either be a bad MAP/Altitude sensor, or a bad knock sensor (it has two)...
- Not enough fuel pressure. It should have 3.8bar with vacuum/4.2bar without it. For this, it can be either the fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, or clogged fuel lines.
- Bad spark. For this it can be bad HT leads, coil, distributor cap, or spark plugs.

My advice is, first check all the vacuum lines inch by inch. If you still use OEM vacuum lines, these can crack with age, and have been the culprit for bad performance on many occasions.
Secondly, I would check around the turbo for any signs, especially the wastegate actuator. These are prone to "stick" and can cause the turbo to spool endlessly. Best way to check this out, is to apply around 1bar of pressure on the vacuum nipple, to see if the rod moves at all. OEM Mitsu turbo's are also prone to crack at the entrance of the internal wastegate. If the crack gets too big, WGA can't control the wastegate anymore.
Thirdly, I would check each HT lead individually. Since the front three leads (for cylinder 4-5-6) are closed below the upper valve cover, where it is always hot, they are also prone to fail. Check their resistance from end to end, and also visually check the state of them.

Report back...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peruccy View Post
It has a MAP sensor. Just not the "usual" one, like most cars have where it has a vacuum nipple, which goes directly to the intake tact. It has a MAP sensor (aka altitude sensor) which senses the altitude via resistance. And based on that, it uses a preset value for every 100m of altitude above/below sea level, which it then sends a signal to the ecu, proportionate to the altitude value...
As I said there is no MAP in the PLENUM. Altitude correction is a totally different story.
There is no way ML can know the plenum pressure, it only knows the air flow and can gestimate the MAP. Gestimate because the relation flow <-> MAP depends on the engine's VE.
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I did test admission with a compressor, 1.4 b in dump command line, a cap instead the Afm, and in the tube going to the catchoilT.
The pressure remains a few seconds first, and all the leaks making noise, i did fix it, until 1 bar at least stay for 20 secondes in the circuit.
Sparks coils are good as head and finger, but a bad seller sold me bosch super4, the worst spark plug ever... crap. That''s the word, i guess.
I'm not sure about knock sensor, or wastegate, i'm try to hypnotise it but it does not talk at all. I mean, i don't know how to test those, as the altimetrique sensor.
Someone here gave me a line to mod in the motro chip, and i did it
The gtv is know running with 1,45 at each time I want...
I was asking myself if a Q2 is very important or if it is just a fashion....
Now, I know
Unsafe without it
Just a small thing: I would never try to get ride of that protection before strongly test my admisson system...that is the best way to detroy the turbo, spinning through leaks and without regulation... always an eye or two on the turbo pressure mano...
Boz
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If you have rewritten the chip with fuel cut removed, you won't have fuel cuts anymore, that is true. But previous fuel cuts happened for a reason. You haven't fixed the problem, you just ignored it with the chip. You now basically have no way of knowing, if/when your engine is knocking/pinging, so be careful that you don't blow the engine...

Altitude sensor has 3 pins. You need to check resistance between them. Between pin 2-3, you must get 2-3kOhm, and between pin 1-2 for sea levels below 1200m (France for instance), you must get 0,5-4,5kOhm.

Knock sensor can only be tested with an oscilloscope. But what I have found out over the years owning V6TB engines is, that nearly on all the engines I have seen, one of two knock sensors had damaged plastic/cover around the piezoelectric plate. Mainly because these knock sensors are in between the Vee of the engine, and always under high temperatures, which over the years has it's toll on the plastic. So replacing them just to be on the safe side is no bad thing. After all, they are not expensive.

You can test the function of the wastegate actuator, by applying pressure to the nipple. 0,9-1bar is the factory boost level, so that will suffice. You should see movement in the wastegate actuator rod/arm, if it works properly. If not, it is sticking which would explain knocking because of too high boost level.

1,45bar of boost in no problem for this engine... IF the engine is healthy! I was running 1,9bar for a few months on my previous AR164 V6TB. with the Big16G turbo from a Lancer (68mm compressor wheel, stock is 58mm), without a problem. Engine was overhauled and checked over, prior to the mods though.
If I were you, I would rewrite the original chip file and try to fix the fuel cutting. When that is fixed, then I would chip it and start boooosting...
IWWICA likes this.
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If you have rewritten the chip with fuel cut removed, you won't have fuel cuts anymore, that is true. But previous fuel cuts happened for a reason. You haven't fixed the problem, you just ignored it with the chip. You now basically have no way of knowing, if/when your engine is knocking/pinging, so be careful that you don't blow the engine...


Right. It seems to be logical
With td05, pressure afm reads for motronic is still 1.43, but with much more airflow, it means 1.25.
If it cannot reach up that level, there's a leak.
Thank many Thanks for your precious tips.
I didn't understand one thing: débitmètre (afm) mesure an airflow. The motronic (or ezk) reads knokin by the two sensors in the center of the V
But what do you say that it's not able to read pingin/knokin as I remove the limiter?
Whats the relation between that protection and knok sensor?
Boz
And many Thanks again
1,45 is way too much for front weels !!!
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This engine protects itself by fuel cutting. When knock sensors detect knocking/pinging, they tell the ECU, to cut fuel. If you remove that in the chip, you have no "safety" from the ECU. You can boost like crazy, until the engine blows up...
Sure, knock sensors might detect pinging, but since you've removed the fuel cut, the ECU has no way of "stopping" you or the car to protect the engine...

BTW... there is never enough boost!!!
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This engine protects itself by fuel cutting. When knock sensors detect knocking/pinging, they tell the ECU, to cut fuel. If you remove that in the chip, you have no "safety" from the ECU. You can boost like crazy, until the engine blows up...
Sure, knock sensors might detect pinging, but since you've removed the fuel cut, the ECU has no way of "stopping" you or the car to protect the engine...

BTW... there is never enough boost!!!
I always believe that when ECU recieve knock signal from the sensor, it slow down the spark advance, in order to break the knocking mechanism. that's the way it's explained in the " service book". we can see it when we want to accelarate hard, the car doesn't seems to work well until we release the pedal, then it seems to accelarate way better suddenly. did you test it? i was told it's the ECU working to avoid knocking...
the fuel cut is told as a limiter for pressure only, in the book, a "consigne" for the highest level of boost garrett is able.
it's calculate with air flow and temperature by the AFM.
it means that, my car is 17 years old, if the AFM's spring is to smooth, it might give "full panic" signal before the real limit. somebody ( and I) try to harden the spring, 3 crans for beginning. it seems too aproximative for me, I would like to see in real time what that does with a wideband. I have an EGT but it's not enought.
I don't think the spring is too smooth in mine.
I'm asking myself to mount a mégasquirt, and I know it's worth the money.
I'll do it when the car will be ready for circuit, empty and new engine before...
I 'd just like to understand, and that's why I thank you again.

and yes, there is never enought boost, that's true. if you can stay on the road! -))
boz
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As far as I know (I disassembled ML4.1 and a part of EZK few years ago) Motronic does not know EZK exists. It does its regular job: ignition and injection. Then the ignition signal goes into EZK which, depending on the boost and other things, retards it and sends to the ignition amplifier. EZK controls the boost valve and receives knock signals.
If EZK does not see the expected knock signals with and without boost it deactivates the boost valve (it refuses to activate it). The check is performed all the time at every compression stroke and there are measures for every cylinder.
You can bypass EZK, control ignition with something else or control both boost and ignition with something else.
As peruccy has said knock sensors may burn out because they suffer from the heat inside the V.
The altimeter is a V6TB feature which adjusts the mixture in the open loop mode. It's not critical if you don't run hill climb race and live at the sea level. Other Motronic had alti switches or no information at all, they were deducing this information from the flow in WOT.
The fuel cut can not directly depend on the boost pressure, it depends on the air flow. Because ML does not have intake pressure sensor. Air flow depends on the MAP, RPM, air temp and VE.
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Résumé from bordeaux France.
Everything works good.
No knocking with High temp outside ( i fell it as I told)
Full pressure, 1.45 @ 3500trs
Car is running like a junky rabbit
I'm thinking as Il busso of mounting a megasquirt like, maybe a KDFI
But
Just for knowlegg:
Is it possible to find where are the afm presets in hexa bin?
Can you tell me, us by the way, where is what ?
I found some fake xdf, like if is there sort of secret, a Corse "omerta"
-)
Thanks
Boz
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Sounds interesting.....

1.45 bar max. boost on the TD05H-12B @ 3500rpms... Nice !!!
Did you have some tourquesteering now...?

Its a noticeable difference to the Garrett T25 with its smaller exhaust side, i know, especially on lower=less/higher=more revs. But the compressor side is not that much bigger compared to the 12B. (T25=38mm/12B=42mm)(EVO3=48mm)(inlet dia.)

So you will have less lowend tourque and a bit more highend power @ original boostlevel

But with more boost you can profit of the larger exhaustside on higher revs.

Did you have the pre-catalysator still in place ?

I have it removed and i have max. boost of 1.3 bar @ 3500-4000 on my EVO3...

So you see its not a big turbolag difference from the 12B to the EVO3

The problem is only that the original ECUs messure AF via the old flapy Airflowmeter.

I can not ad more boost with chiptuning with my setup at the moment.

I was thinking about a swap to a megasquirt ECU about 2 years ago. I have all the stuff for a conversion. MS2-V3 with extra FW and basemaps - knocksensor conditioner - custom made wiringharnesconnector adapter etc...
But this need some rollingroad sessions and they are are so expensive....

But really, im not want more power with a front wheel drive car as i have now...

I have serious tourquesteering untill 3. gear....!!!

Cornholio

Last edited by Cornholio; 22-05-14 at 07:14.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozhunter View Post
Can you tell me, us by the way, where is what ?
I found some fake xdf, like if is there sort of secret, a Corse "omerta"
If the question is for me: I'm not so sure but I don't think there is fuel cut based on air flow in ML4.1, only the rev limiter fuel cut. So the cut must be in EZK and it can only cut ignition. The EZK is the worst code I've even seen in OEM ECU, it's totally different from usual Motronic firmwares and I gave up on trying to understand it.
The Alfa V6 is a even-firing engine with one ignition signal and batch fire injection, you could not find anything simpler to control. Remove the EZK and install a piggy-back ECU to retard ignition and control the boost. Or you could leave EZK in place to keep the knocking detection, not for boost which should be controlled by a piggy-back, modify the AFM signal that goes to it, however with more boost you get more powerful combustion so EZK may wrongly think there is a knock and limit ignition.
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If the question is for me: I'm not so sure but I don't think there is fuel cut based on air flow in ML4.1, only the rev limiter fuel cut. So the cut must be in EZK and it can only cut ignition. The EZK is the worst code I've even seen in OEM ECU, it's totally different from usual Motronic firmwares and I gave up on trying to understand it.
The Alfa V6 is a even-firing engine with one ignition signal and batch fire injection, you could not find anything simpler to control. Remove the EZK and install a piggy-back ECU to retard ignition and control the boost. Or you could leave EZK in place to keep the knocking detection, not for boost which should be controlled by a piggy-back, modify the AFM signal that goes to it, however with more boost you get more powerful combustion so EZK may wrongly think there is a knock and limit ignition.
Someone here gave me a "cheat code". In his chip, at a precis adress, I find a"255.255.255...." an so.
I check all my chips, and find that those with something else do a fuel cut as I describe it in my first message.
Hard cut, like if you break your engine, for about 1 orc2 seconds, and no more boost up 0.5 until you reset the key.
I'm not talking about rev cut, smoother and not restrictive
As noone is able to read ezk"crap" code, i decided not to watch further.
But in ecm 2001, i was able to find 4 or 5 curves dedicaced to turbo/air temp, turbo pressure but nothing to cut something.
I realyse ezcrapk is not able to cut anything, only give a frenquency for the pierburg that control turbo. It's not capable of ignition cutting, only shape spark advance with temp and pressure calculated, because it is not wired to hardware.... not at all.
It indicate, it does not command anything.
So, i assume that you're right, motronic does not know ezcrap, it has same infos than it and cut if too high...
I'm maybe wrong, but with one chip plug in the motro, I have noy cut at all, one with 255
To go further, i read 4 types of chips...
Some sold as "espezial per grosss turboooo!!" Buy it cheap! Only 500 bucks from a guru of alfa freaks, buy it quick!
It's a ......stock eprom with leaner line at 700 rpm, just to tell it's special
A piec of crap for dummies
A chip with tons of gasoline everywhere, but no spark advance mod...... prout pout prout tuhtuh, black smoke
A chip that everybody claims it's a mess that blows engine even beford you plug it in.
Work done everywhere, very smooth at iddle, strong but not too much, safe
Not cheap, but no offens to squadra tuning, it works good too...
Chiptuning is a world of Gurus, especialy if you have a no-obdII car like me. Noone knows, everybody sells....
I am waiting for a wideband,
And I'll do it myself
Thank everyone for feeding the thread
Boz
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You are wrong in one point: EZK does control ignition, the signal goes from ML4.1 through EZK and then to the ignition amplifier. Otherwise it could not retard ignition as ML is not aware of its existence.
The fact that after the cut there is no boost until you restart proves this is made by EZK because EZK is in control of the boost pressure.
ML has two rev limiters: soft and hard. The hard one is a fuel cut so it's violent as well.
Note however that ML4.1 is a slow ECU and at 6300rpm it's very much is its capability limits, ignition is quite imprecise above say 5000 rpm. It does not hurt the engine because at these revs engines don't ping easily and are very forgiving however performance is not optimal. It's better to use more recent ECUs.
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You are wrong in one point: EZK does control ignition, the signal goes from ML4.1 through EZK and then to the ignition amplifier. Otherwise it could not retard ignition as ML is not aware of its existence.
The fact that after the cut there is no boost until you restart proves this is made by EZK because EZK is in control of the boost pressure.
ML has two rev limiters: soft and hard. The hard one is a fuel cut so it's violent as well.
Note however that ML4.1 is a slow ECU and at 6300rpm it's very much is its capability limits, ignition is quite imprecise above say 5000 rpm. It does not hurt the engine because at these revs engines don't ping easily and are very forgiving however performance is not optimal. It's better to use more recent ECUs.
Yes, you are right
I did not see it
Ezk gives advices to motro, and shape ingnition data through it.
I am asking myself about piggy ecu, aem sybele or kdfi
I am sure i could use the wiring and sensors with this last provider
It is a ms2 like, and, that is the aim, with a pressure sensor in it
I could make an *****/n systeme, as in every good turbo car
Boz
Could you send me a mail?
Talking of tech stuff in french and share, if you don't mind
Thx
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Hi,

yes, the boostlimiter is on the ML4.1 chip and cuts fuel @ ~1.4 bar boost with the original T25 Turbo.
Did you have the original TD05H-12B from the Alfa 164 installed ?

I change to the TD05H too but i had it upgraded with a bigger EVO3Big16G compressor wheel.
And i have a ML4.1 chip with removed boostlimiter installed and running 1.3 bar max. boost.

Did you have a EPROM burner ?
You can buy one for ~50 Euros on E-Bay.
With it you can read and write EPROMS very easy and i can send you the ML4.1 file with removed boostlimiter.

bye
hi,

my gtv v6 tb is chipped, with t25. but boost cut is active, can you send a file with a no limiter.

thanks for it. my e-mail [email protected]
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hi,

my gtv v6 tb is chipped, with t25. but boost cut is active, can you send a file with a no limiter.

thanks for it. my e-mail [email protected]
I send you a E-Mail..
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Hello,does anybody knows
a)what the power module-ignition amplifier can cause if it fails?Is it on-off or can also reduse power etc?
b) If I disconnect the knock sensors should I see anything different on the engine behaviour except that ecu could not read pinging?
I think that a or b electric parts are fail.
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Originally Posted by bathas View Post
Hello,does anybody knows
a)what the power module-ignition amplifier can cause if it fails?Is it on-off or can also reduse power etc?
b) If I disconnect the knock sensors should I see anything different on the engine behaviour except that ecu could not read pinging?
I think that a or b electric parts are fail.
If it fails it can possibly damage the ECU's output but it's unlikely because this output is internally protected. It's just on/off, it's an external amplifier so you can easily change it.

If you disconnect the knock sensor you won't have boost above the mechanical level which is around 0.3-0.4 bar depending on how the wastegate arm was adjusted.
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