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twin turbo 159...?

ok so I am currently looking into tuning options for my 159 2.4 jtdm. not in a huge hurry to get things done, but hoping to emulate a few guys on here and edge towards the 300hp mark.

so far 1 starting point tune option I have seriously looked at is an interesting variable twin turbo mod. BMW use a Borg Warner system on such cars as the 535d, and I think Volvos latest V70 is using the same principal, and that's a 2.4 5 cylinder lump...

anyone else had any experience of twinning there 159? would certainly give more power through out the rev range, and by increasing the final stock turbo to a GTB2260VK would have the potential for 300hp+, along with remap, and all the other obvious tune ups.

wondering if getting a 535 turbo setup and custom manifold could be a good start point...
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Volvo 2.4 uses integraded exhaust manifold. the turbo is not very good for upgrade 159 2.4 turbo. ( not big enough )

Bmw uses non integrated manifold, and bigger wheels on the larger turbo, that is much better option. the standard compressor wheel is 50mm / 70mm on that.

but still, with 2.4 engine, I would go for Bmw 3 liter diesel newest 10 blade wheel gtb2260 turbo. good for around 320-330hp.
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This has all been done before....and you don't need a twin turbo for 300bhp+...
In fact, the (standard turbo for a 210) gtb2056vk will already get you to 300bhp.

Have a read through my thread - might give you some ideas.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko.Männistö View Post
Volvo 2.4 uses integraded exhaust manifold. the turbo is not very good for upgrade 159 2.4 turbo. ( not big enough )

Bmw uses non integrated manifold, and bigger wheels on the larger turbo, that is much better option. the standard compressor wheel is 50mm / 70mm on that.

but still, with 2.4 engine, I would go for Bmw 3 liter diesel newest 10 blade wheel gtb2260 turbo. good for around 320-330hp.
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Originally Posted by Clogz View Post
This has all been done before....and you don't need a twin turbo for 300bhp+...
In fact, the (standard turbo for a 210) gtb2056vk will already get you to 300bhp.

Have a read through my thread - might give you some ideas.

cheers guys. I am having a good read through all the posts, particularly those in your tune up section Clogz. getting some good ideas, and like I say still very much in the planning phase at the moment.

I am pretty new to diesel tuning, so am applying my limited knowledge of petrol tuning to what I plan for my beloved 159.

so far my ideas/plans are as follows

the twin turbo mod as already mentioned. while I understand I don't need the 2 turbos for 300hp, I feel it would give a better power curve through the rev range. 300hp isn't so much a goal, I would be happy with 270-280, its more that I don't particularly want to exceed 300, and the increase in torque would be substantial, and as I understand from previous posts this is possibly the upper limit for the drivetrain. the car is still to be used as a regular vehicle not just a toy. plus increasing the final turbo size, the addition of a smaller turbo spooling up quicker to give boost in the lower rev range, and reduce any possible turbo lag.

again not knowing too much currently about the insides of the 2.4, and you guys on her may be able to clarify some of these...

bore out cylinders, to increase displacement to 2.5l. I have read that the cylinder bore is 82mm dia, so boring out to 83mm dia, if permissible by the wall thickness of the cylinder should increase displacement enough. either that or possibly a crank with a longer throw on the con rod journals, and a thicker head gasket to maintain the compression ratio to 17:1.

head work...can bigger valves be machined into the head? in the past I have had bigger valves fitted to petrol engines, along with head porting and matching to the manifolds to allow the whole system to breath better. this alone on a petrol engine gives great improvement, so I figure as a diesel likes lots of air it should work here too.

bigger throttle body, again allowing it to breath better.

bigger intercooler, injectors, increase fuel rail pressure, stainless exhaust, re map and induction kit.

have been looking into performance cam shafts but as yet not found any to add to the list.

water methanol injection seems to be quite popular on here. not really what I am looking into. would like to just do a full re set up and re map with more precision made components to see what it gives me.

like I say a lot of planning at the moment, and may possibly try to get hole of a 2.4 jtdm lump to work on so my car remain on the road while all this gets done then just drop the tweaked engine in...

any and all recommendations, links to assisting posts or further tweak ideas welcome. this is a long run project idea so what do people think?

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It's a diesel, turbo diesel. NA petrol tuning approach doesn't bring much here. IMHO twinturbo - double the problems. The latest generation GTB turbos with ball bearing works like a charm. Wil give you easily both - 300HP and still more torque under 2krpm than your drivetrain would like.

Last edited by yan.ko; 24-01-14 at 20:31.
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Originally Posted by yan.ko View Post
It's a diesel, turbo diesel. NA petrol tuning approach doesn't bring much here. IMHO twinturbo - double the problems. The latest generation GTB turbos with ball bearing works like a charm. Wil give you easily both - 300HP and still more torque under 2krpm than your drivetrain would like.
cool ok.

so a question for those guys running a bigger GTB ball bearing turbo...I am still looking through the posts for the answer to this but...

whats the turbo lag like? would you like it to spool up that teany bit quicker?
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Originally Posted by Jarkko.Männistö View Post
Volvo 2.4 uses integraded exhaust manifold. the turbo is not very good for upgrade 159 2.4 turbo. ( not big enough )

Bmw uses non integrated manifold, and bigger wheels on the larger turbo, that is much better option. the standard compressor wheel is 50mm / 70mm on that.

but still, with 2.4 engine, I would go for Bmw 3 liter diesel newest 10 blade wheel gtb2260 turbo. good for around 320-330hp.
been looking into these. bmw have that many engine numbers that I have confused myself!

which model bmw uses the setup you talk about?

cheers

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Honestly Yorkie though i appreciate and agree with your enthusiasm and goal to be different, unless your really daring, listen to the guys above they have done it and made the mistakes and done the research for you, i did a different conversion and ran out of patients, it awaits in drive for me to finnish it, had a listened to advice id have been driving it for last 6 months, theres so much involved with a turbo upgrade its quite unreal until you start

Like you im into petrol tuning, infact id been doing it for 6 years before buying my 147, its a COMPLETELY different game

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good advise
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Honestly Yorkie though i appreciate and agree with your enthusiasm and goal to be different, unless your really daring, listen to the guys above they have done it and made the mistakes and done the research for you, i did a different conversion and ran out of patients, it awaits in drive for me to finnish it, had a listened to advice id have been driving it for last 6 months, theres so much involved with a turbo upgrade its quite unreal until you start

Like you im into petrol tuning, infact id been doing it for 6 years before buying my 147, its a COMPLETELY different game

Wayne
and I entirely agree back mate. I am doing my research thoroughly, and fully reading (though its taking time) the threads on here from the guys that have pushed the boat on tuning the 2.4.

and yeah I am daring. I love a challenge, and having the bit between my teeth kinda got blinkers on but if it doesn't turn out to be a viable option then it wont happen. its a hobby eh and as I don't plan on getting rid of my car then I don't mind if it takes a bit of time to come to fruition.

also I have my own lathe, and access to a mill, plus welders etc (from an engineering background) so all the fabrication can be carried out "in house", with only the remapping having to go out to true experts.

my initial plan as it stands is to get hold of the turbos and manifold from a BMW E60 M57 engine (that's 335d/535d 3.0l pushing out 286hp). and either modify or fabricate a manifold to fit onto the alfa as a direct replacement, and see how that performs.

as has been pointed out the injectors and fuel rail are good enough for upto around the 300hp mark so they shouldn't need changing. hoping that it may give me, with a good remap, about the 280 area. if successful then further mods may arise...time may tell...

frustratingly for me when I get an idea in my head it sticks! drives wifey mad but as I worked hard to get the car I wanted and I have absolutely no intention of getting rid(unless euro millions pick the correct number when that new 4c may find itself parked on the drive), and to give me something to do as a hobby...and this is not a planned instant tune, would be good if I can achieve something slightly different over the next year to 18 months.

fingers crossed, otherwise I may have to copy directly others work...
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I'm glad you don't give up

One hint for the beginning - check how's BMW twinturbo controlled. Alfa has only one output controlling vacuum converter (VNT).
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You would probably have to go for two non vnt turbos, this will be a pain to tune, but you don't need the vnt. Also, I think the gtb2260 can't really push this engine to the max, so if you want max power possible, you will need much bigger turbos. Seen 1.9 run on gt30+gt40 turbos... but of course this is only useable on track.
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I think there are a few with gtb2260 hybridised to gtb2265 not sure if they are extended tip also also think there may be gtb2065 knocking around on a 2.4 here.
the tdi boys don't even seem to want to do the twin turbo conversions, only a few have followed them to completion that I remember especially street / daily drivers.
have a scan through some threads
My Compound Build /// B4v - TDIClub Forums
Mk4 Golf TDi, 4-Motion Converted, Compound Turbo, The Usual!!! - TDIClub Forums
there are lots more conversions on there due to volume of numbers of vw out there
but to give an idea look at te 1/4 mile table and see what turbos are on there
Log of quarter mile times - TDIClub Forums
plenty of gtb single turbos , not many twin turbos.
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My hybrid turbo upgrades were/are 2265(ish). Both turbos have a compressor wheel with an extended tip.

I suspect a twin turbo setup will be more than a challenge on a 2.4jtdm...
Also, two turbos aren't necessarily twice as good.

Anyway, keep us updated with how you get on.

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A dual turbo setup is everything but easy.
First of all the control as yan.ko pointed out; you have only one ECU output now.
You can solve that by adding another output, but I think it will be quite hard to build that from scratch without any base map.

Or you make a mechanical way of steering the two turbo's. Either way the transistion between the two will be a challenge. You can end up with huge backpressure or bad response.
Reserve lots of time and money if you go this route.

Obviously, the more easy and proven solution is a GTB2260/65 with ballbearings, like Clogz has. I don't think he has any complaint about torque at low revs.

147 JTDm 16v - GTB2060v - 329 hp/578 Nm
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first hurdle to cross then...how the turbos are controlled. I have joined a bmw forum and asked some burning questions.

again I have been reverting to prior small understanding, and experience with petrol rather than diesel, and years ago playing with mechanical diesel injection on an old fiesta diesel.wrong I know but keeping my fingers crossed I get the answers I am hoping for

I take it that the Alfa uses electric actuator. from what I can see in the pics of the bmw system it is old fashioned vacuum units.

some years ago on a mechanical diesel injection Mercedes I made a set of pulleys for a mate who bolted on a roots blower to the top of his engine, along with the standard turbo this pulled like a train after increasing the fuel pressure. obviously technology has improved/advanced since we did this, but cant help thinking that it can be done. if I am wrong and I stick with 1 turbo so be it, but that's all part of the fun of mods and tuning eh.

currently cant even get out to look under the bonnet of my car to do some proper research as at the end of last month I hit some potholes going down a road near me in Surrey, and caused nigh on £3000 of damage to the car (that's including labour charges). Thank heavens for insurance!!! she has been at the garage since the 3rd of this month as they slowly have been rebuilding the suspension. Its had 2 new tyres, 1 wheel, 1 reconditioned, various suspension arms and a hub to top it all off as the geometry wouldn't line up. Surrey Council are hearing from my solicitors and insurance! Get her back on Saturday and cant wait!!!

when I get here back the fun will commence! I hope...

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Our turbos are vacuum, not electric
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Actually, your first hurdle is going to be where/how to fit a twin turbo...

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Actually, your first hurdle is going to be where/how to fit a twin turbo...

Quote!
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Where is a good question :P Think if you change the battery to the boot it will free some space close to the intake manifold. But it will be a huge project.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yan.ko View Post
It's a diesel, turbo diesel. NA petrol tuning approach doesn't bring much here. IMHO twinturbo - double the problems. The latest generation GTB turbos with ball bearing works like a charm. Wil give you easily both - 300HP and still more torque under 2krpm than your drivetrain would like.
whilst the GTB conversions are immensely impressive for peak power and torque, when you compare low RPM numbers with something like a standard 535d there is a huge difference - at 1600rpm the GTB 2.4 is pulling approx 160lb/ft, whilst the 535d will pull 413lbft ! - for some that won't matter at all, for others it might..
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whilst the GTB conversions are immensely impressive for peak power and torque, when you compare low RPM numbers with something like a standard 535d there is a huge difference - at 1600rpm the GTB 2.4 is pulling approx 160lb/ft, whilst the 535d will pull 413lbft ! - for some that won't matter at all, for others it might..
Not sure where you get your figures from or what your are comparing,
Don't forget you are now comparing a 3.0L six pot against a 2.4L five pot.

The £45,320 BMW535d M Sport F10 8 speed auto gives 442lb ft at 1750rpm peak.
as stated here
BMW 535d M Sport Review | Autocar
With two extra cogs in the box you can gear the torque to where you want it.

My last dyno still running a standard GTB2056 was showing approx 420lbft @ 1750rpm and and kept going over 500lbft and peaked at @ 2272rpm. I still need to tidy a few things up so there should be a tittle bit more to come.

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Hub dyno'd at well over 500lbft at the wheels ! and that's limited.
Thats over 750 Nm for you figure fiddlers

Last edited by coxy1; 29-01-14 at 20:48.
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Stock GTB2056 has no problem in low revs on a 2.4, it can probably make more torque than flywheel and clutch can handle... but GTB2260 (or even "65") is a different story.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy1 View Post
Not sure where you get your figures from or what your are comparing,
Don't forget you are now comparing a 3.0L six pot against a 2.4L five pot.

The £45,320 BMW535d M Sport F10 8 speed auto gives 442lb ft at 1750rpm peak.
as stated here
BMW 535d M Sport Review | Autocar
With two extra cogs in the box you can gear the torque to where you want it.

My last dyno still running a standard GTB2056 was showing approx 420lbft @ 1750rpm and and kept going over 500lbft and peaked at @ 2272rpm. I still need to tidy a few things up so there should be a tittle bit more to come.
I pulled the figures off of this dyno graph, couldn't remember who's it was, guess it's not yours - must be JB or Clogz. Sounds like yours has a much quicker spool up

BMW figures were from

2014 BMW 535d Diesel First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

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yeah lord knows how it will all fit in, if at all. so plenty of research required, but its giving me something to do when I am not at work, picking up after screaming kids, or pestering the missus.

its just something that has really sparked my interest. I am relatively uneducated in the modern turbo, and do understand that new ball bearing variable geometry turbos do spool quicker, with less turbo lag than old turbos. and I stand in the shadow of the guys on here running just 1 and getting such good performance. gents I may be picking your brains at some point in the future...

that said, I still really like idea of that little turbo giving a bit more low down oomph. if it can be achieved then this is where it'll be shown.

I just fancy getting slightly better performance than a simple remap and exhaust change.i am not in a hurry to get this done. and having had NOS on an older petrol car and personally finding it a lot of aggro, I want to try and get better performance using bigger turbos, higher fuel pressures etc... rather than add another fueling system.
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