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Old 20-11-13 Thread Starter
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injectors sarga

Having spent a lot of time and money trying to work with united diesel to develop a viable injector upgrade, I turns out that they just don't have the knowledge or equipment to work on bosch injectors. They tried to put me back to standard and I had to sort through eight injectors they had 'refurbed' to find a set of four that I could get to work. I also had to systematically go through the list of injector codes to get them now running as I would hope. I still gwt a little smoke when starting from cold but nothing like the clouds and banging noises I had with some of the injectors they sent.

The problem I have identified is that the bosch injectors are not manufactured to be accurate, they can have a variation of upto 20mg/stk at full flow. The shims inside do not allow for accurate balancing and thus without the correct calibration codes they can not run to the tolerance the ecu needs. United kept trying to balance a set of injectors to each other but then again, with no calibration codes they were far too inaccurate and caused smoking and misfires. When they tried to send a set to a company with a bosch rig to get new calibration figures, they were all too far from standard for figures to be generated. Most places that refurb injectors just don't bother with recoding even if they have the bosch rigs, meaning you would be buying crap thst may be worse than a worn item.

Anyway, I don't have funds to purchase a new set at the moment, so I will make do with what I have managed to piece together. Anybody looking to buy refurbed injectors I would suggest think long and hard as they are very unlikely to be within manufacturer's tolerances.
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Old 20-11-13
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I don't have much experience with uprating the injectors, but I have noticed that most workshops do not generate new calibration codes after they refurbish the injectors. I don't know what the problem is, as they should have been calculated every time you change something on a injector. Also the Bosch testing equipment can calculate this "on the fly". I have talked to many workshop owners and they say that those codes are not important. Which is absolutely not true. Those codes play a major importance on fine tuning the ECU output signals. Without those codes you will have problem with cold starts, rough idle, smoking...

And another example how can wrong injector codes influence the engine power output.
Owner of the car changed the injectors without programming the codes of new injectors into the ECU. After programming the right codes into the ECU power output raised more than 5%. With same ECU settings.
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Old 20-11-13 Thread Starter
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They all say the same because they have no understanding of the injectors, they just want to make money off people by lying. with the injectors I have in now, if I change the codes around it runs very round, stutters, put out huge clouds of smoke when cold but with the codes I have settled on it is only a little rough when cold and smoke clears within a few seconds. The performance difference as you say is also very noticeable and even the turbo spool up is measurably improved.

The lowest value in my map is 0.2mm^3/stk, and without calibration figures you could not get near to that accuracy. Bosch designed these injectors to be easy and cheap to make, with wide tolerances on the flow and reaction times; the calibration codes generated then take them down to the finite accuracy that is NEEDED by the system to run safely and efficiently. Any injector refurber that says Bosch codes are unimportant, might as well be selling you things out of their car boot.

I'm not going to give up on uprating the injectors and stick with my tried and tested water/methanol fumigation system. I think it is running well enough to fit my next turbo too, which I think has too much off the turbine and will be late to spool but we shall see.
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Old 20-11-13
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Ive looked a few times for a good description of the ima code system and what the letters and numbers mean in terms of fine tuning the injector opening and closing distance speed and time.
Tribesman Have you ever found anything in the maps that look like might be related to ima code calibration tables ?
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Old 20-11-13 Thread Starter
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The code breaks down into a couple of pilot injection rates, three main flow rates and reaction time I believe but there are check bits in there too, so we would need an accurate description of the algorithm to generate anything usable.
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I don't have exact specifications how things work, but what nutron said is close to reality.

There are 9 alphanumeric characters in the code.
When injector is tested they test different operating modes. Like, pilot injection (low and high pressure), idle operation (low pressure, short injection), slow speed cruise (medium pressure, medium injection), and full throttle acceleration (max pressure, max injection). Also injector reaction time is measured.
Measured values are then compared to factory specifications, and the deviation between measured and specified values defines the code (to simplify we can say that positive deviation is represented by numbers and negative deviation by letters), if deviation is too high, you cant generate a new code, as there is a limit how much can the algorithm compensate. Each of fist 6 characters represents different parameter, and last 3 characters are used for "checksum".

The most noticeable thing that you notice if injectors are not calibrated properly is very rough idle. Sometimes it sounds like engine is knocking.
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Old 21-11-13 Thread Starter
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That is the biggest problem, especially when cold. Even if I could just work out the check sum calculation, I could imporove running by trial and error.
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Old 21-11-13
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It looks like modified common rail injectors are a no-go if you want to stay out of trouble...

@Nutron, did you never consider to buy Ducati Corse injectors, or was your goal even higher fuel flow than the +20% of the Ducati's ?
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Old 21-11-13 Thread Starter
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Somebody mentioned them before but then I got no further info. Would they have compatible calibration codes for the 0445 110 159/243 injectors? If so do you have a part number for them. I looked at exchange injectors from Bosch and they were £210 each, so United Diesel as well as the thousands they have charged me have left me with three sets of injectors that do not meet specification that should be worth £2500 refurbished (what they claimed to have done) but are now worth nothing.
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Can't you take the injectors to Bosh specialist who is able to test them and assign correction codes?
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good find tribesman
will have to digest that over the weekend.
ive had a quick scan and unless i missed it i see no actual code breakdown or explination of code letter and number assigned
to the point that we could pick injectors on their code , or see our code and work back to see if it underfuels or overfuels at the various test points.
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Old 21-11-13 Thread Starter
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Becuase United Diesel buggered them up by trying to match the flows of them to each other at just one pressure, they are now all outside the tolerance of the Bosch rigs and no codes can be generated. They are effectively scrap or I can use them as exchange items to get new or Bosch factory refurbished items. Trying to recover them would cost more in man hours than brand new items.

The linked page just goes through the reasons and theory behind the calibration, which is all common sense but useful for those not familiar. Unfortunately it doesn't give you any idea of the code break down as you say. I have tried changing random characters before but without knowing how they calculate their check sum, there is no way to unravel it.

Any response on my question?
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Quote:
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Somebody mentioned them before but then I got no further info. Would they have compatible calibration codes for the 0445 110 159/243 injectors? If so do you have a part number for them. I looked at exchange injectors from Bosch and they were £210 each, so United Diesel as well as the thousands they have charged me have left me with three sets of injectors that do not meet specification that should be worth £2500 refurbished (what they claimed to have done) but are now worth nothing.
Ducati injectors can be used on a stock 150HP JTDm engine (Joel is using them on his 147). The calibration codes are accepted by the ECU, so I see no reason why they would not be compatible with CDTI.
Bosch part numbers for Ducati injectors is 0 445 110 341

The only way you could calibrate your modified injectors it is to find nozzles with similar flow and if you are very lucky the calibration codes are compatible with the ECU... But I wouldn't count on that. Each engine manufacturer has its own calibration method, and they are not compatible. For instance BMW and VAG group uses 7 character codes.

Maybe you should ask United Diesel to try and test the injectors with Ducati injectors as a reference. Those provide 20% more flow, if you are lucky maybe your injectors will be somewhere inside tolerance and you will be able to get the codes you need. But if I remember correctly your injectors are much bigger, tolerances for flow are only around +-5mm3 and reference flow is ~75mm3.

Do you have any test read outs for your injectors? Can you post them here to see what are the flow figures?
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Old 21-11-13
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Quote:
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Somebody mentioned them before but then I got no further info. Would they have compatible calibration codes for the 0445 110 159/243 injectors? If so do you have a part number for them.
Yes they are compatible, I had 0445 110 243 as standard and replaced them with the 0445 110 341 Ducati ones and programmed the new injector codes. It really works great, no difference in idling, less smoke and around 20 hp more with similair EGT.
Imo one of the best performance upgrades I did.
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Old 21-11-13 Thread Starter
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They can not give any flow data, because their machines are so antiquated. It was just a huge waste of money, I could have bought two or three sets of new Ducati injectors for the amount they have taken. They were aiming for +40% and +80% and if the nozzle alone had been changed it might have worked but once they started messing around with the shimming, they ruined everything they touched.

I shall have to save for the Ducati items and wait. The standard injectors with water/methanol can already see me past 228 wheel power, if I can get another 20 with the Ducatis, 250 wheel power will be more than enough.
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Old 22-11-13
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250HP is absolutely possible with Ducatis, check the thread about JSJTDs 147...
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Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
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250 road wheel, not fly wheel mind
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Old 22-11-13
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Well it is possible, but you will need 2.5bar boost, so GTB2260VK(LR?), and there will be smoke, as injection window will be too long and you will be injecting fuel after TDC...

But it also depends where you are measuring power... I know that Joels car would make much more power on some other dynos.
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Old 22-11-13
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250 whp? Tha's like over 290 engine hp? Maybe on a very "enthusiastic" dyno. Maybe if you upgrade cams and use w/m injection.
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Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
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The water methanol kit delivers 100mg/stk of water:methanol (50:50 by volume) at 4000rpm, and that does not need injection time as it is pre mixed in the air. I run 30-34psi currently. Road wheel power figures from two separate places in the country have been 224whp and 228whp. Losses from transmission are only about 20-25 hp @ 4000rpm but pumping losses can not be measured when decelerating. So I would estimate maybe 285bhp from 250whp at absolute most.

As I can already outrun remapped 2.8T V6 VXR Vectras on a standing 1 mile drag (Thunder road events) it's not exaggerated output.

The water methanol kit has served me well for 5 years and I wish I had stuck with that option for more fueling now.
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