Weight reduction | Air condition | Battery - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 66 Old 16-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Turbo Upgrade 156 2.5 v6

Hi all,

I have started my 2.5 v6 tuning project where the ultimate goal will be to reach >220HP AND reducing weight

After carefully checking all options, the following is currently being done to get the 220HP:
- Reworking the whole intake system with bigger throttle, GTA runners, whole system widened to the max
- GTA or 3.0 injectors
- Flattening and re-working head
- GTA intake cams
- Honing liners
- Lightening and balancing connecting rods
- Renewing all the bearings, seals etc.
- Lightening flywheel
- Finally remap on dyno

The mechanical part is o.k for me and I am not facing any troubles except that this car is awful to work on. I did a Fiesta XR2 before which was so much easier to work on

I need some advise on how to reduce and balance weight. As a first step I thought it is a good idea to put the batterie into the trunk, take out the spare tire and stuff and replace it with a spray.

2nd I recognize that the air condition is like 30KG at least if not more but I have no idea how to remove that system properly (without covering the whole garage with a slimy shining color)

Can anyone please advice me on how to best replace the batterie, remove the air con. and where else I can save some weight?

Some pics from the start
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20131116_165125.jpg (105.0 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg 20131116_165144.jpg (120.8 KB, 61 views)

Last edited by cciech; 18-11-13 at 21:22.
cciech is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
a bit late now to get the aircon emptied...
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 66 Old 16-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

I think I can handle it if someone who has experience with this can give me some advice. I am pretty sure I am not the first one facing this.

Thing is it was not planned to remove the aircon but looking at the whole system why not taking it out? It will be more of a fun car than a daily ride.
cciech is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
well, the valves for filling the AC system are the same shape as the ones for a tyre, so just remove one and let the gas escape. or wedge something inside to keep the valve open. I presume you don't want to do damage so you can sell all the parts on the bay of E's....

Wear gloves when you do this or you're likely to get freezer burns.
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 66 Old 16-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Thanks buddy!
cciech is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
I don't think you'll actually save 30 kg but the AC compressor is all the way forward and removing the AC condensor will improve the cooling capacity of the coolant radiator so a worthwile mod...
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Icenutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: -
Posts: 71
Just a note on removing the air on. In the UK, it is illegal to vent the gas from the system.


[color=gray]Sent from AutoGuide.com App[/color]
Icenutter is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
it is everywhere, but when the car is not moving anymore what are your options? which is why I said it was a bit late to get the AC emptied.

that being said, the system could be empty already
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 66 Old 17-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Thanks gents :-)

I am not yet in the garage but the system will be emptied today. Usually, I am taking good care of the environment so a little lapses is allowed. The system was nearly empty anyway.

Other suggestions regarding battery movement and more car diet options are still very welcome :-)

Who has some hints regarding sport seats?
cciech is offline  
(Post Link) post #10 of 66 Old 17-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

O.k aircon is gone and it is altogether around 15-20KG I would say. There are two valves at the top that can be easily emptied with a plastic bag over the hand and a screwdriver being put into it :-)
After standing there like a goober for 10 minutes the system was finally empty.

Is there anyone who could give me some hints for what wheel to chose? I have now the original 15inch alloy things on it but I wanna go bigger and if possible lighter.
cciech is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
are you wanting original alloys? I'll have a look on Eper later and tell you how much each ori ally weighs.

17" is the best imo on a 156, and allows for fitment of 305mm brembos (mito brembos fit without modification) or if you get GTA uprights you could use 330MM brembos aswell..
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #12 of 66 Old 18-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Turbo upgrade 2.5 v6

I found some OZ wheels that are very light and look great. Gonna open up a new tread for a turbo upgrade now to collect all information for future upgraders :-)
cciech is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

7.5j rims can weigh in at 7.6kg and still be cheap.
7j rims in the 6 kgs but best off with 205 tyres.

removing all the sound deadening, gutting the doors, gut the bonnet and boot, removing the heater (fit a heated screen) and fans, gutting the dash, aftermarket bucket seats, polycarb windows, race battery and you would have a real lightweight screamer, prob get down to 1000kg.

But you probably want all the creature comforts still, but you can still gut the bonnet and boot and look at unsprung weight, such as the rims.
jasons is offline  
Status: Race cars in progress
AO Silver Member
 
Gertie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 5,993
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasons View Post
7.5j rims can weigh in at 7.6kg and still be cheap.
7j rims in the 6 kgs but best off with 205 tyres.

removing all the sound deadening, gutting the doors, gut the bonnet and boot, removing the heater (fit a heated screen) and fans, gutting the dash, aftermarket bucket seats, polycarb windows, race battery and you would have a real lightweight screamer, prob get down to 1000kg.

But you probably want all the creature comforts still, but you can still gut the bonnet and boot and look at unsprung weight, such as the rims.
With 305mm GTA brakes and the rest gutted like Jason said and added a 70kg roll-cage - my 156 2.0TS racer came to 1080kg with me in it, race fueled so yes 1000kg . The V6+6speed is 50kg heavier than the TS+5speed

Except Polycarb windows - the weight saving is not as much as you'd think, 5-8kgs max. ALL the winding mechanisms are out - they are heavy, the fronts can open and screw in place on a aluminum guide rod, rears are fixed shut. The fan / vent system weighs 30kg - all that gone. Two race seats with 4 point harnesses. Rear seat, parcel-board and even parcel board frame gone - roll-cage makes the stiffness. I run GTV 16" teledails as they clear the 305mm and came cheaply...

I can save 20kg in the wheels + low profile tires, but that is pricey... and I think I can find another 10kgs to cut out here and there, but I am nearing the limit... I was still thinking of moving the (already smaller) battery to behind the passenger seat to lower the centre point of weight and move it back, but that will not reduce weight - the cable is not heavy and will counter the removal of battery base

Last edited by Gertie; 20-11-13 at 07:39.
Gertie is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 37,014
Instead of spending that much effort tuning the 2.5 wouldn't it have been easier to fit a 3.0 lump instead?

It is pretty much a straight swap.
symon is offline  
Status: Race cars in progress
AO Silver Member
 
Gertie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 5,993
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
Instead of spending that much effort tuning the 2.5 wouldn't it have been easier to fit a 3.0 lump instead?

It is pretty much a straight swap.
What you say is true, but he is going the turbo route - MUCH more power that 3.0 N/A. You can get 300HP with stock internals on low boost no problem...
Gertie is offline  
(Post Link) post #17 of 66 Old 20-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Even better! I will do a Supercharger upgrade

My God it is soooo simple.

The Eaton M45 from the mercedes can be simply fitted on the spot where usually the aircon compressor sits. As I have learned today the only thing that might be necessary is to cut out one "triangle?" of the belt that runs the generator and aircon compressor (don't know what this is in English) so that you have 4 instead of 5 lines in the end. You can also vary the pulleys to have more ore less boost.

I will also hook up an intercooler to insure cold air.

By the way:
The Eaton M65 has an internal clutch electronically steered. It can be hooked up in such away that you can press the little aircon button on the dash to run the supercharger ony when needed. Will go for the M45 anyway. Not really good with electronics.
cciech is offline  
Status: Race cars in progress
AO Silver Member
 
Gertie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 5,993
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciech View Post
Even better! I will do a Supercharger upgrade

My God it is soooo simple.

The Eaton M45 from the mercedes can be simply fitted on the spot where usually the aircon compressor sits. As I have learned today the only thing that might be necessary is to cut out one "triangle?" of the belt that runs the generator and aircon compressor (don't know what this is in English) so that you have 4 instead of 5 lines in the end. You can also vary the pulleys to have more ore less boost.

I will also hook up an intercooler to insure cold air.

By the way:
The Eaton M65 has an internal clutch electronically steered. It can be hooked up in such away that you can press the little aircon button on the dash to run the supercharger ony when needed. Will go for the M45 anyway. Not really good with electronics.
Your discussion on cutting one V off the auxiliary belt - you can get belts with 4, 5 or 6 lines - just buy a new one - but then the M45 / M65 has 6 ridges, not 4

Have you looked at the compression maps - the M45 is installed in the C200 that makes 163hp from the 1.8L motor. The M65 is installed in the C230 that makes 192hp from the 1.8L motor

The name has the airflow in it:
M45 air flow: 45in≥/rev = ~737cc/rev
M65 air flow: 65in≥/rev = ~1064cc/rev

The Complete M271 Engine thread.

CAPA : Eaton Superchargers

The M65 does not have a clutch - it has a bypass valve that opens at idle and long partial throttle driving. You can blank it off completely - not needed and may even wear out nose bearing if it runs for much of its life without compression.

I bought an M65 for my 2.0TS racer - going to aim for 0.4 bar which should give +/- 200hp with stock internals

Last edited by Gertie; 02-08-17 at 05:01.
Gertie is offline  
(Post Link) post #19 of 66 Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

Great post, thanks!

So if I got you correctly you recommend me going for the M65 as it is intended for 2.0-3.0 liter engines?

I thought the M65 has an electronically steered clutch that is attached to the ECU. My goal will be to run something below 1bar but I will have to check this on the dyno.

Do you limit the boost with a bov valve that sits close to the throttle?
cciech is offline  
(Post Link) post #20 of 66 Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

What about the M62?
cciech is offline  
Status: Race cars in progress
AO Silver Member
 
Gertie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 5,993
Garage
Well yes I would recommend the bigger one for V6 - the M62 is 3in≥/rev less flow than M65 and 17 more than M45

You must think differently about SC than turbo - For first instance - you generally put the throttle BEFORE the SC...
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/...truckpassb.gif
http://image.mustang50magazine.com/f...splacement.jpg

You must choose pulley size ratio from crank to SC at full throttle for a specific airflow at max RPM, that will determine your max boost. With the partial throttle before the SC, it sucks on a restricted pipe and boost will be lower, so there is no need for blow off valve.

Sure you can get complicated boost control by operating the bypass throttle on the M65 with the throttle at the manifold side to get slightly better efficiency... then you might need blow off valve just to be safe, but your bypass throttle should handle that anyway...
Gertie is offline  
Status: Rh - C8H18
AO Member
 
Speedmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bulgaria
County: Stara Zagora
Posts: 377
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
I was still thinking of moving the (already smaller) battery to behind the passenger seat to lower the centre point of weight and move it back, but that will not reduce weight - the cable is not heavy and will counter the removal of battery base
It will be very wise to move your batt to lower center point because lower C of Gravity gives more cornering grip than similar level of weight and track widening........
Speedmaster is offline  
(Post Link) post #23 of 66 Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

@Gertie;
Sorry for asking that dump but why does it matter? I imagine it like this:
Airbox or filter -pipe-> MAF -pipe-> Supercharger inlet -pipe-> Intercooler -pipe-> Boost sensor and BOV -pipe-> Throttle

The airflow would be the same as if a turbo would be in place(apart of the exhaust of course). The BOV would regulate how much pressure can build up and I would also be able to verify that with the boost sensor in place.

Having the throttle in front of the supercharger would be a nightmare on the v6 engine as I cannot place it at the spot of the aircon compressor and would have to move it somehow on top of the engine. This is not possible though as I get issues with the belt (where shall I get the spin from). If the supercharger is not on top of the engine the throttle response would be another nightmare.

To get the supercharger on the top of the engine something like this shown below is needed(directly with the inlets from an Audi 3.0 tfsi). However, I still wouldn't know where to get the belt from.

Any inputs are appreciated :-) I will buy the supercharger by the end of next week when the cash comes in
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 12.jpg (75.3 KB, 8 views)
cciech is offline  
(Post Link) post #24 of 66 Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

@Speedmaster;
I took the battery with all the metal crap out and I am about to make some nice little alloy case where the spare tire was sitting. Still not sure what cable to use to have it 100% safe but I will figure out somehow :-)
cciech is offline  
(Post Link) post #25 of 66 Old 22-11-13 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Poland
County: Kujawsko-Pomorskie
Posts: 74

Member car:

Alfa 156 3.0

o.k the throttle can stay where it is. Nearly all aftermarket tuning supercharger kit do it that way. Have a look at the rotex kit in the link below which is I think the only "official" Alfa kit being offered on the market. At the end it is the same as a turbo from a throttle's point of view. It just sits there getting air pressure :-)

I will just mount the M62 or M65 and see how much boost comes in and adjust it accordingly. Having a nice zzzssssccchhhhh on the run is something I wouldn't wanna miss(except if it is the tire)

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3511251&type=1
cciech is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
air , battery , condition , reduction , weight

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome