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Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

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(Post Link) post #26 of 177 Old 08-11-14 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nutron View Post
You can get good reads from autos on standard dynos. I mapped a Vectra auto 1.9CDTI with one of my hybrids and I was very irritated by the ECU to kick down at the slighest touch of the pedal and almost totally avoid the torque peaks. I adjusted the mapping to prevent this and managed to get a good reading of 190WHP (220BHP/384lbft flywheel est) .
Since fitting the hybrid (map unchanged) the lower / faster spool has significantly helped with kick downs. Its far less eager to drop a gear now and much happier to just pull in whatever gear you are in which is a bonus. After the FMIC is installed its going in for a full hub dyno mapping session and one of the goals is to make sure the gearbox is using those torque peaks properly!
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Hey Jay, nice to see that you took the turbo upgrade path

I subscribed to the forum to get access to your post, in the hope that you had find an upgrade for the AWTF-80SC...looks like you came at the same conclusion as me : that freakin gear box is very limited in ''tunability''

I own a Mazda CX-7 with the Mazdaspeed 2.3T engine, and am also cursed by the AWTF-80SC

I emailed Trifecta tuning and Polestar tuning to see if they could tune the trans on my CX-7 (they tune the AWTF-80SC on the Chevrolet and Volvo platform), but they never answered

Transgo makes some nice valve body DIY recalibration kit (more line pressure, faster and firmer shift...), but they only offer a basic rebuild kit for the AWTF-80SC

I found a local trans shop that sells used AWTF-80SC valve body for 125$ (Canadian dollars)...I will get one and reverse engineer the thing in the hope of finding a reliable way to improve the shifting and line pressure (much like the Transgo recalibration kit)

Next on the list is to upgrade the torque converter so I can semi-manualy lock it under heavy load to be more efficient like a manual (this involve a simple electronic controller to lock the converter at the right time...)

The trans upgrade is not my #1 priority right now, but you can see my progress here in my build thread : Big turbo build CX-7 :P - Mazdaspeed Forums

I will keep an eye on your post in case you find something interesting for the trans

Cheers, Torquemaniac
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(Post Link) post #28 of 177 Old 01-12-14 Thread Starter
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PM'd you.
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PM'd you.
Apparently, I need to upgrade my account to be able to send PM (which I wont do because im not going to be here often)

If you have some questions, just ask on this thread...I have a transmission thread here also : CX-7 transmission A to Z... - Mazdaspeed Forums

I will acquire a spare valve body probably next week and start the reverse engineering process :P
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(Post Link) post #30 of 177 Old 05-12-14 Thread Starter
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Thanks Torque.
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As a new owner of a 159 and also a brave DIYer, I watch this topic with interest.
Great work so far!
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(Post Link) post #32 of 177 Old 10-12-14 Thread Starter
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I've been working with the team @ Autolusso on a new map for the car that can take advantage of the hybrid turbo and also lift the torque limits in the gearbox. So far we have found a number of torque limiters in each gear managed by the ECU that have all been lifted ready for a hub dyno session. We are still a little unsure if this will have any effect on the gearbox but its a work in progress!

The current plan is to get the base map ready with all limiters lifted to around 600nm of torque (gearbox limiter is 510nm at the minute) and the latest ECU updates applied so we have a good starting point then we are going to spend an afternoon on a hub dyno tweaking & measuring to see what is possible out of the gearbox.

This session will be completed after the FMIC has been fitted, which will be in the new year now I reckon


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load limit gear tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by JabawokJayUK View Post
I've been working with the team @ Autolusso on a new map for the car that can take advantage of the hybrid turbo and also lift the torque limits in the gearbox. So far we have found a number of torque limiters in each gear managed by the ECU that have all been lifted ready for a hub dyno session. We are still a little unsure if this will have any effect on the gearbox but its a work in progress!
As far as I know, the transmission does not actively limit torque output via some software logic...the gear tables are only one of the many tables used to limit engine output in certain condition (in the Mazdaspeed platform, the gear tables are used by Mazda to limit load in 1st and 2nd gear)
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(Post Link) post #34 of 177 Old 11-12-14 Thread Starter
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I believe it does TM, If you use the right software you can see it. With the Alfa, we can use MultiECUScan to connect to the ECU and also the Gearbox where there are a number of Torque related variables such as estimated torque, actual torque and torque limiter. The torque limiter on my vehicle is set to 510nm and I went out to collect some data recently and saw max torque of 402nm in 4th with the current ECU map.

We have subsequently looked at the ECU map and found that the ECU had its own 'per gear' torque limiters set which is why torque flat-lined at 402nm in 4th as the engine started to produce peak torque and the ECU limited it.

We are going to try the latest map with all the limiters lifted to 600nm and run some more logs to see what effect it has had. The engine / turbo combination in use is/will be the same as an identical friends car with a manual trans where he produces in excess of 670nm at the wheels.

Even if I end up with a hard limit of 510nm courtesy of the trans, the car will still be ideal for my daily driver
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Hummm...interesting...ill investigate this a bit, however I dont see how the trans could actively limit (or reduce) torque output (except by inducing clucthes slippage, which would not be good for the trans as it would heat things up a lot)

Looking foward to seing your results
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(Post Link) post #36 of 177 Old 11-12-14 Thread Starter
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I think it's handled by the trans telling the engine ECU to pull back the power using the rev limiter etc. The ECU has limiters itself fur the same purpose. I'll let you know what we find out.
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(Post Link) post #37 of 177 Old 11-12-14 Thread Starter
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Here is the recent data log showing the torque values from the gearbox
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File Type: jpg torque.jpg (172.0 KB, 68 views)
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Really nice tool the MultiECUScan...too bad it doesnt support my car :P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquemaniac View Post
Really nice tool the MultiECUScan...too bad it doesnt support my car :P
Its very useful for us!!! Download the trial version and see if it will connect to your gearbox. The tool has a specific area to manage the gearbox vs the ECU so it might just connect to yours as well. Got to be worth a try for a free download and a cheap OBD cable off ebay.
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Stopped by Autolusso to get the new map with increased 4th gear limiter and decided it would be rude not to squeeze a few more ponies out of her so we lifted all the maps & limiters another 5% and another 2% boost to just give her a Christmas tickle

Not sure what the actual boost is at now, but around 2300mbar so plenty of headroom in that turbo to play with. No more can be had till we get the FMIC in and the RR session though or she will become a full time smoker. So far with the increased levels we are still not smoking so that is testament to the health of the engine and skills of the team at Autolusso who keep her in tip top condition!

Drive home was typical rush hour traffic and congestion but I got a couple of places to stretch her legs and ooooof, that extra 5% made a hell of a difference!!!!
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Did you ever consider a meth injection kit before going FMIC...with meth you have higher octane and denser/colder intake charge...which equal more boost, more advance ignition timing, thus way more power/torque (FMIC also induce some lag)

Check out Aquamist...they make the best kit and are in the UK
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Oops...just noticed you had a diesel...dont know if meth will be beneficial then...
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diesels love water/meth injection
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Their is already an FMIC on the car but its buried behind a nest of radiators and is quite restrictive so the FMIC conversion is to shoehorn in a 3" core up front. W/M injection is on the list but last.
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Work on the mapping continues.

With the help of another member on here who is very knowable on ECU's we have found a whole bunch of stuff to work with ready for the major remapping session
  1. All the turbo PID maps for the turbo are still for the old KKK so they can be swapped with the GTB2056 PIDs from the stock 210 map to better integrate the new hybrid before tweaking
  2. The N75 vacuum controller map is the wrong one at the minute so the actual vs desired values for boost will be out
  3. Torque limiters in 1,2,3,4,5&6 have been identified ready to be lifted (most now @ 500nm)
  4. The gearbox input torque limiter has been identified ready to be lifted (current @ 500nm)
  5. Injection & Rail Pressure map values ready to be tested

The current map I have had on for the last few years only had the following changes made:
  • Driver wish maps (all increased by 10%)
  • EGR maps (to stop EGR from operating)
  • DPF DTC related values (to stop car from going into limp mode without DPF)
  • Engine torque limiter increased to 500Nm all across the RPM range (except 4th which was missed for some reason originally)
  • Overheat protection quantity limiter (all increased by 10%, even at temperatures above 110C which should be left as standard)
  • RPM based quantity limiter
  • Fuel temperature based quantity limiter (again, all increased by 10%)
  • Map converting requested quantity and current rail pressure into injector opening time (increased by 5-15%)
  • Desired boost pressure map (increased by around 10%)
  • Boost pressure limiter based on atmospheric pressure still limited to 2.8Bar
  • Few DPF related maps (mods seem to be exactly the same as dimsport mods)
  • Fuel rail pressure maps (increased by 5%)
  • Pedal map start values increased to start at 10% (presumably to remove auto-lag & encourage kick downs!)

We are going to start with a fresh upgraded ECU then step through the changes needed for the new turbo before lifting the limiters to 650nm and playing with fuelling & boost on the Rolling Road.

First the FMIC needs to be bolted in though so that's going to happen this month at some stage.
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This is one of those threads where I recognise some of the words being used but am mystified as to what you are trying to describe (not through your lack of description just my lack of technical awareness). Having said that, it's still an interesting project, so I am now subscribed!

I do have a query though, did you know that you were going to make these modifications when you purchased the car and if so, what was the reason that you did not purchase a car with a manual gearbox (assuming that it would be stronger than an automatic)?
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Oh and I assume that the amount of mapping you have done now means that you are past the point where you might have seen an improvement in mpg?
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(Post Link) post #48 of 177 Old 03-01-15 Thread Starter
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Yeah, mpg has been a thing of the past for a while now.... Auto = bad mpg to start with but have had 40mpg average until the new turbo & 2nd stage mapping so now have around 35mpg and expect around 30mpg post fmic and final map.

That's combined figures btw and always with the loud pedal fully depressed at all times, so I am happy I get that level of economy with the equivalent performance.

I love the auto, and I bought it as I do around 20k a year so the auto is a useful addition on a 6 hour drive. That said, on the motorways I use it in semi-auto mode as I don't like the way its kicking down at the minute, but I will likely fix that in the next mapping session.

If I was starting again I would get a manual Q4 to help put the power down, but as a daily driver this is as awesome as it gets and can be a lazy cruiser all day long. Realistically, I will end up in a 4x4 daily driver of some kind for work and do something radical with this at some stage
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Are you fitting the FMIC or are you getting a garage to do it?
Are you going to reshuffle the radiator/oil cooler/intercooler so that its at the front? Whats the overall dimensions of your FMIC?
Sorry for all the questions, I am looking at upgrading the turbo for a hybrid unit on my 2.4 159 and trying to work out if I need to upgrade the FMIC and if so by how much?
I am not very far from you and am very interested in how you get on with this project.

Cheers
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The FMIC is being fitted by Autolusso and they will be offering it as a conversion for any 2.4/1.9's that want it. Another forum member is already planning on having it done after mine with them. We are doing the dev work on the pipework / placement / additional mods etc on mine so its easier to repeat in the future.

Its not small 600x300x76MM (76mm core, 1050cfm @ 0.5psi drop) and yes it will be in front of everything else. We have to work out the positioning and how to shoehorn it all in and will have to modify other things along the way like the intake and the oil cooler / power steering cooler etc.

The reason for the inter cooler choice is that although others have had great results with the RS500 inter cooler, @ £300 its a bit pricey to start with and unless you can do your own ally welding its another chunk of change to make it fit as the pipes have to be cut off and moved / blanked whcih is a lot of work. This inter cooler is more of a standard / universal one that is used in many applications from Scooby/Evo's through to american muscle so its a "lot" cheaper and the pipes are already on the right ends so does not need to be chopped around

A hybrid turbo unlocks more power as it can get more air though more efficiently so you get more power without smoke, but if you want more power again the only way is to get colder denser air into the intake so you need a larger & better positioned inter cooler.
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