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1.9 JTD 16v 110mm3 IQ question:)

Hello everyone, I got into an argument at my local Alfa forum about how much hp can a 1.9 JTD 16v do with 110mm3 IQ at 4000rpm. Another member claimed it is over 260hp, but I think it is more arround 240hp.

The point of my post here is to get your opinions, so, how much do you think it can do with 110mm3 at 4000rpm, and why?
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Suppose it has a lot to do with turbo and all other mods inc inlet and exhaust,fmic etc and larger 80mm maf,
No go on std turbo
Probably no go on a 1752 hybrid,220- 230 on a 1756 hybrid maybe
240-260 on a gtb2056 or gtb2060
260+ on a gtb2260 or gtb2265 hybrid more again
As the vnt% for given boost is going to afect emp and egt
With the ducati injectors and shorter duration maybe more on all above?
And then you have the r/r diferences 5%=12hp 10%= 25hp you could do 2 dynos and get figures miles apart.
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Of course dynos are not to be trusted, I reached 240hp by calculating how much 110m3 would mean in terms of torque.

I don't think turbo matters for the discussion, this is a theoretical discussion assuming that all fuel is burned well, so maximum turbo efficiency is already considered.

How much torque do you think we can possibly get at 4000rpm with 110mm3?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exar1711 View Post
I don't think turbo matters for the discussion, this is a theoretical discussion assuming that all fuel is burned well, so maximum turbo efficiency is already considered?
Wrong assumption!

I will show you the proof when I get home. I have two dyno sheets, made on the same dyno, both 147 JTD 16v, both 94 mm3 injection.
One car is mine with GTB2056v, the other one from a friend with a hybrid GT1752v turbo.
226 hp vs 203 hp.

Backpressure plays a major role in the output, therefore you just can't apply a general formula to calculate torque from IQ.
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I think you did not understand or I explained myself badly, what I meant is, let's consider best case scenario. As in, max torque possible with 110mm3 at 4000rpm with best possible turbo?

*EDIT*

Also, NM to IQ map on 2.4 20v is exactly the same for 200 and 210hp, so it seems the different turbo doesn't matter for the ECU calculations on expected torque.
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With 110mm3 it is possible to have 260HP. But there are a lot of things that have to be done to achieve that.
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You mean, true 463Nm at 4000rpm?
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Yes
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So stock nm to IQ maps says 450nm at 4000rpm is 97mm3, and correct escalation for 527nm is 110m3? I say 527 because friction loss of 64, 463+64=527.

Is map wrong for 450nm? Extrapolation for 500nm looks like arround 110mm3, but you claim 110mm3 is 527nm. This makes me confused.
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And you think that stock Nm->IQ maps are the holy grail?

Those maps are calibrated on stock exhaust and intake system. Did you read what JS JTD wrote? If you fit free flow exhaust with bigger turbo, those maps are completely useless...
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I don't know, seems a huge difference.

So free flow exhaust and turbo will improve engine efficiency in over 17%?

*EDIT*

Actually, a correction on my above words: 6%!!! not 17!

Also looking at the 2.4 210hp, that uses the gtb2056 (only diference is the freeflow exhaust), 500nm on the map are 91,5mm3. A 1.9 would need about 20% more so: 110mm3. The same as expected by extrapolation of the 1.9 map. I know maps aren't the "holy grail" as you put it, but a lot of things add up. Freeflow exhaut will give over 16hp extra?

Last edited by exar1711; 08-08-13 at 13:39.
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If you have any r/r data on your car and know the fuel that was injected to give actual nm you can easily redo your own iQ to nm map by interpolating back , and up from known points .
Once away from std hardware map is already out and only way is to calculate your own.
Mine worked out at 117mm3 for 500nm and 101mm3 for 450nm so estimate at 110mm3 around 485nm maybe(guessed as on phone cant extrapolate)(edit calc to 478nm)
I did one using zbrsks old dyno data with bigger gtb2056 turbo and got 510nm.
You will not get 1 answer unless someone can calculate theoretical figures from engine bore stroke, compresion ratio ,thermal efficiency ,actual bcsf data fuel quality and cetane rating etc etc

Last edited by sussexa; 08-08-13 at 16:00.
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"Mine worked out at 117mm3 for 500nm so estimate at 110mm3 around 485nm maybe."

You mean this on the NM to IQ map before friction loss or after?
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Before friction loss, worked out to 478nm at 4000revs for 110mm3
We can only go on actual figures and i think zbrsk is only one with data upto 110mm3
With 110mm3 ,I think he had around 550nm from2500-3500 revs and dropped to around 510nm at 4000revs.
This was extrapolated from his data(actual rr figs + friction in red)
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...9&d=1355177015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exar1711 View Post
I don't know, seems a huge difference.

So free flow exhaust and turbo will improve engine efficiency in over 17%?

*EDIT*

Actually, a correction on my above words: 6%!!! not 17!

Also looking at the 2.4 210hp, that uses the gtb2056 (only diference is the freeflow exhaust), 500nm on the map are 91,5mm3. A 1.9 would need about 20% more so: 110mm3. The same as expected by extrapolation of the 1.9 map. I know maps aren't the "holy grail" as you put it, but a lot of things add up. Freeflow exhaut will give over 16hp extra?
In my case the free flow exhaust gave 8 hp extra.
210 hp with 87 mm3 with standard exhaust
218 hp with 87 mm3 with freeflow exhaust
226 hp with 93 mm3 with freeflow exhaust
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I don't think the dyno is measuring it well. 510nm at 4000rpm with 110mm3? Maybe a 2.4 20v will do that torque with that IQ, a 1.9 won't. Check Allerd's dyno, seems like measured 440nm at 4000rpm with 110mm3. Even your extrapolated calculations are just a little higher than this. It has been said that there was no difference from 95 to 110mm3, but even if it was 95mm3, a 1.9 would need 114 to get the same torque.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exar1711 View Post
I don't think the dyno is measuring it well. 510nm at 4000rpm with 110mm3? Maybe a 2.4 20v will do that torque with that IQ, a 1.9 won't. Check Allerd's dyno, seems like measured 440nm at 4000rpm with 110mm3. Even your extrapolated calculations are just a little higher than this. It has been said that there was no difference from 95 to 110mm3, but even if it was 95mm3, a 1.9 would need 114 to get the same torque.
Allerd used the same dyno as me, so our figures are 1 to 1 comparable
He had 260 hp on two different dynoes, and I did 226 and 232 hp on those:

Allerd's (100mm^3)
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...p;d=1368907797

Mine ([email protected] rpm, 93[email protected] rpm)
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...p;d=1368947562

Last edited by JS JTD; 08-08-13 at 17:57.
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That's excellent to compare
So you did 232hp with 94mm3 at what revs? Can you tell how much you did at 4000?
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Sorry can't see anything in the pictures, resolution is terrible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exar1711 View Post
Sorry can't see anything in the pictures, resolution is terrible
Fixed!

/EDIT: now with datalogs for more accurate information:

Mine:
sec rpm mm≥/i mg/i mBar %
0 1277 57,636 692,5 1384 74,96
1,05 1400 57,636 760,5 1565 74,96
2,09 1544 71,364 957,5 1954 70,31
3,12 1727 75,603 1127,5 2290 60,77
4,18 1967 77,544 1205,5 2509 56,94
5,23 2222 80,751 1241 2548 49,89
6,29 2482 82,659 1271 2551 46,88
7,32 2750 84,036 1352 2699 43,35
8,36 3032 86,547 1451,5 2805 39,78
9,41 3293 88,287 1464 2847 37,5
10,47 3549 90,336 1457 2899 34,94
11,53 3800 92,196 1467 2941 32,65
12,56 4027 92,97 1450,5 2958 30,81
13,6 4237 93,111 1419 2953 28,83
14,66 4443 90,588 1379 2911 25,35
15,69 4610 81,804 1276,5 2745 23,86

Allerd's:
rpm mg/i mm≥/i mBar
1564 643 51 1536
1636 677 56 1686
1750 727 59 1855
1857 803 67 2111
1989 984 78 2371
2168 1071 90 2569
2361 1057 88 2738
2565 1083 91 2767
2758 1169 98 2833
3004 1227 99 2844
3178 1247 99 2888
3372 1287 99 2924
3544 0 98 2954
3701 1310 96 2972
3862 1307 93 2994
4013 1305 89 3005
4159 1305 86 3012
4318 1269 80 2935
4428 1199 76 2774
4529 1085 66 2521
4621 987 61 2287

147 JTDm 16v - GTB2060v - 329 hp/578 Nm

Last edited by JS JTD; 08-08-13 at 18:19.
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It is strange, with only 4 mm3 difference in the IQ as you at 4000rpm, Allerd's is doing only 20nm more.

Any explanation for this?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exar1711 View Post
It is strange, with only 4 mm3 difference in the IQ as you at 4000rpm, Allerd's is doing only 20nm more.

Any explanation for this?
Nope.
I think we can conclude there are a lot of factors other than IQ that have influence on the output figure.
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Numbers from Allerds graph are not directly comparable to JS, because his duration map was altered... Real injection time was longer, but then there are other differences, much lower fuel pressure 1600 vs 1750, more advanced SOI, and so on...
Also as we have talked about in other threads, there is something limiting Allerds car, because his power numbers were held back. After real 95mm3 there is almost no power increase. You can go to 105 and you gain a few HP. And I guess that even up to 95mm3 the power is not as it should be.

The last thing he did that increased the power quite a bit, was programming the injector codes into the ECU. After programming acceleration times were reduced by half a second...
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ill stick this here also as relevant to jtd 16v engine
picked from a saab ttid IQ NM MAP
Attachment 230658
Most reasonable map ive seen so far at 500nm ,original anyway.

Last edited by sussexa; 02-12-15 at 20:06.
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Hi Guys.

Long time no "see" ... Just found my nick in this topic ...

Well referring to exar original question, it depends on a number of factors. With a non restrictive turbo for that IQ, like the GTB2056v you should get [email protected] (482Nm) with 110mm3 if fuel is completely burned and the proper injection window is used.

Another issue, is getting a "real" 110mm3 out of the injectors .. where you would need a high range wideband and a bigger MAF to properly calibrate the injector into the ECU. I think I'm "there" with the DC injectors, but not quite sure.

And yes, you should ignore the stock newmans map, from my experience any cell that is not used in the original mapping is to be taken with care.

At the moment I'm working on my 120mm3 file ... which should be interesting ...

All the best!

Luis

Alfa 147 JTD 1.9 16v
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