2.5 V6 Power boost - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 32 Old 07-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
2.5 V6 Power boost

Hi all,

I am about to take home my new baby, a 97 V6 Widey.

Would like to get some more power out of her, this is Canada after all and here power is king...

Could anyone be so kind as to give me a list of upgrades to do so I can give that list to my tuner?

I am thinking induction kit [if it exists], and it already has a custom exhaust, plus an Autodelta tune. Is the tune a soldering job on a '97 155, or is it merely a chip and plug and play?

I was reading about bigger throttle bodies. Does this work if I say source one from a 3.2 or a Ferrari etc.? Any remapping required?

Also was reading about intake runners. Are these the chrome curved pipes? Which should I get fitted to my 2.5? GTA? 3.0?

Might go cams later in the game if I get the funds, but for now I am thinking intake to compliment my existing exhaust, bigger runners, bigger throttle body, and a tune. Sound about right? Bring power to about say 180hp?

Sorry for the stupid questions, I am really new to 155s [know R53 MINIs, Audi A4s, and Saab 9-3s really well however...] and searching the forums has provided some conflicting and confusing information - I am not used to tuning a n/a engine as well.

TIA for any help!

Will not run with the pack
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 3,118
Pictures please . 3.0 intake runners are bigger and 3.2 a little more bigger I think. Either would be an improvement. I would just stick to basics first an run it for a while to make sure everything is ok. Induction more sound than performance.
AYAT is offline  
Status: Suck , Squeeze , Bang , Smoke!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Allerd's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 1723
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Netherlands
County: Drenthe
Posts: 770
no that stuff wont fit , you have a 12v engine, wich is completly diffrent to newer 24v engines.

you could fit spider 12v cams and exhaust manifolds
Allerd is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
Induction kits increase noise, but decrease power....

you'd be best to fit the 3.0 12v engine from the spider aswell

the chip is not a soldering job, but it's not likely remappable over the diagnostics plug either. Socketed chip, so you need an EEPROM with the correct software
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 32 Old 08-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
thanks for the replies

I want to keep the 2.5 in there for collection's sake...and also I have absolutely no access to any other Alfa engines anywhere, this is Canada...

So Spider 12v cams and exhaust manifold, panel filter but not induction kit, and chip? Is that all I can do to the 12v 2.5 V6?

I cant fit a larger throttle body or larger intake chrome runners from say a 3.0?
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: Suck , Squeeze , Bang , Smoke!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Allerd's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 1723
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Netherlands
County: Drenthe
Posts: 770
afaik 3.0 chrome runners are the same for 12v , but i could be wrong..
those spider manifolds are stainless steel (do turn brown) and 155 are cast.
A diffrent trottle body could work , but you'll need a cable opperated one.

best is to fit a 3.0 24v from gtv'97 and use gta inlet cams , with a bit of luck you'll have around 250hp
Allerd is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
the 12v throttle body is huge as it is (8v engines have 70mm), might be 72 mm from memory if not the same as the 8v engines. Enough for nearly 300 bhp anyway.

What will be a restriction is the AFM, which has a maximum area of 50*40mm. I opened the AFM up to 50*45mm on my 8v but never got a chance to thoroughly test the results as I run out of fuel capacity. It did seem to yield more power though...
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 32 Old 08-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allerd View Post
afaik 3.0 chrome runners are the same for 12v , but i could be wrong..
those spider manifolds are stainless steel (do turn brown) and 155 are cast.
A diffrent trottle body could work , but you'll need a cable opperated one.

best is to fit a 3.0 24v from gtv'97 and use gta inlet cams , with a bit of luck you'll have around 250hp
thanks for the suggestion, but the only 3.0s in Canada are in beautiful GTVs right now, which is even more expensive than my car. Cant really do it, and to ship an engine from Europe...I don't want to think of the price...

So I guess I am screwed with my engine? Maybe put on an intake for noise, love the noise want more all the time, and put in hotter cams?
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: Suck , Squeeze , Bang , Smoke!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Allerd's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 1723
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Netherlands
County: Drenthe
Posts: 770
yes , would be a good option.
or upgrade your maf like CS155 said
You could use the e30 m3 one afaik , but those are hard to find
Allerd is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
peruccy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 89
You can do some mods to your engine, and since you're from Canada, finding parts won't be too hard, because in the US, there are many parts for older Alfas. Just check ebay and you will see...

As for tuning - intake runners:
- All Alfa 2.5 V6 12V & 2.0 V6 TB & All 3.0 V6 12V (except QV version) engines have 38mm intake runners
- 2.5 V6 24V & Lancia 3.0 V6 have 42mm intake runners
- All 3.0 V6 24V & 3.2 GTA & 3.0 V6 12V (164 QV model) have 45mm intake runners

So for intake runners, I would suggest you get 45mm ones. I've also seen from one US alfa specialist, that they even make custom 50mm intake runners for the Busso. Might be good to check it out.

Next the intake manifold:
- All V6 12V have 2l capacity intake manifolds
- All V6 24V have 2,5l capacity

And yes, you can fit the intake manifold from i.e. a 3.0 V6 24V model. I fitted it on my 2.0 V6 TB engine along with 45mm intake runners, so it can be done! You just need to modify it a bit, so it will fit. And use an adapter plate for the throttle body. Since the 24V manifolds are a different shape - on 24V engines, the manifold is also used as a valve cover for 1-2-3 cylinder head, which on the 12V engines it is not. There it is just a manifold. So you need to cut that piece away, modify/weld on the three legs where the manifold sits on the valve cover, and that's it.

Next the exhaust:
- Exhaust manifolds from 12V engines are better designed than on 24V models. So using stock ones is the way to go. But you can remove or replace the factory cat, because it munches quite a few horses. Also you can fit a bigger diameter exhaust completely. 2,25" is the stock size, going 3" would be hell of a lot better While you're doing this, you can remove the middle silencer, because it has no role whatsoever (it is not silenced, it only acts as a resonator), so there are some gains to be had as well. And of course a lovely backbox, to top it all off.

Cams:
- Best cam upgrade for your engine would be to use the 3.0 12V QV model cams (200hp from 164). But finding them will be next to impossible

Throttle body:
- It is larger than on 24V models as it is, so going bigger will be expensive. You can buy 100mm TB from ebay, but if it will work with your TPS sensor, I don't know... Stock unit will be more than enough for the horsepower you can squeeze from that engine.

MAF:
- People say you can use a MAF from old BMW's (E28' or E30'), but I wouldn't bother. Stock unit is good for massive amounts of airflow. Ask Flavio, he used a stock MAF on his 400+HP GTV, and was only at ~60% of the MAF's limit... Also, using a different MAF would mean you would have to program your ecu to work with it. It isn't plug & play...

Heads:
- Porting your heads is also something you can do, to gain some performance. I once found a site about porting the exact engine you have written by an American fellow. Might be good to search for that, as it was a good read.

And for the end a good chip tune and you're done. It isn't scary, you just have to remove the eprom from the ecu, read it, rewrite it, and voila!

So all in all, you CAN tune this engine. Sure it would be easier like others have mentioned, to just replace the engine, but doing something different is always a nice challenge Bear in mind that AR155 V6 Ti produced almost 500hp with the same engine, so there is room for improvements with your stock ~170hp
peruccy is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Bulgaria
County: Sofia
Posts: 170
Thanks for the huge amount of info. Do you have any dyno results or what power gain you obtain, after these mods and if one can't find the 3.0 12v QV cams what is the best option for non stock cams, which one can use for everyday driving ?
pyle is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Bulgaria
County: Sofia
Posts: 170
Performance Its a good read, but I don't know, if everything written is true.
pyle is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ipoh, Malaysia
Posts: 223
Chaos,

Send your cams down to Webcams in California. They have a grind for the 155 V6. But you need 155 V6 cams because they are shorter than GTV6/Milano/164 cams. The guy to talk to is [email protected] (Richard Jemison) who is in sunny Florida and he will coordinate with Webcams. Then you need to find a Motronic tuner to extract the most power from your cams. OR you can go on Alfabb.com and find this guy called FESTY. He has a kit to interface with the Motronic M1.7 and you can tune your car with a wideband O2 sensor and a laptop. He also has a knock sensor kit.

BTW why didn't you get a Q4? I've driven a Q4 with BC plate, and it a 4wd and turbo would do really well there.

2006 Honda Accord CL9 Type S 6-Speed
1996 155 2.5 V6, Squadra Tuning, RJR Cams
1995 164 Super 3.0 24V
2001 156 3.0 V6, Jim Kartalamakis 10mm cams,
1987 75 3.2 V6, Jim Kartalamakis 10mm cams, Stage2 Injectors, Autronic SM3 & CDI 500R
75evo is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 32 Old 16-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo View Post
Chaos,

Send your cams down to Webcams in California. They have a grind for the 155 V6. But you need 155 V6 cams because they are shorter than GTV6/Milano/164 cams. The guy to talk to is [email protected] (Richard Jemison) who is in sunny Florida and he will coordinate with Webcams. Then you need to find a Motronic tuner to extract the most power from your cams. OR you can go on Alfabb.com and find this guy called FESTY. He has a kit to interface with the Motronic M1.7 and you can tune your car with a wideband O2 sensor and a laptop. He also has a knock sensor kit.

BTW why didn't you get a Q4? I've driven a Q4 with BC plate, and it a 4wd and turbo would do really well there.
thanks for the suggestions, will look into those options! To get the RJR cams, can I not use an Autodelta tune with them? Do I need a custom tune? I do not know anyone nearby who could do a custom tune for me on this car...

I would love to get a Q4 as well, but they are even more rare than the V6 here in Canada...and everywhere else. The V6 was the only one for sale anywhere, and is in fantastic shape. Plus, the sound of the Busso V6 was not to be denied...
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
any tuning company that's in business for 20 years or more should be able to do it.
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 32 Old 16-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
any tuning company that's in business for 20 years or more should be able to do it.
ok thanks, will make some calls soon about this. The cams/engine power will be a next summer/fall project - for now sticking with intake/exhaust and Autodelta tune. Have to do some research on this engine for real power tuning...it seems my options are limited to just a couple of things, as opposed to the 24v engines which have much more for them.

Wish I could do what the 24v engines do and add bigger runners...seem to work well for the 24v...
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
According to Peruccy you can, see his post above
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ipoh, Malaysia
Posts: 223
If you want a 24V you need one from a GTV/156/166/Spider. You cannot get a 164 24V engine.

3.0 24V are very cheap. 3.2 is rare and expensive. If you want to keep the internals stock, think about Rotrex supercharger. If you need some space, think about converting to electro-hydraulic power steering from a Peugeot 106 and move the battery to the trunk.

Honestly, these heavy batteries have no business being in the front of a FWD car, totally going to make the car understeer.

BTW you should get a Squadra chip.
75evo is offline  
Status: alfa's,alfa's,alfa's @Auto Zagato
AO Member
 
tim0172's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo View Post
If you want a 24V you need one from a GTV/156/166/Spider. You cannot get a 164 24V engine.

3.0 24V are very cheap. 3.2 is rare and expensive. If you want to keep the internals stock, think about Rotrex supercharger. If you need some space, think about converting to electro-hydraulic power steering from a Peugeot 106 and move the battery to the trunk.

Honestly, these heavy batteries have no business being in the front of a FWD car, totally going to make the car understeer.

BTW you should get a Squadra chip.

+1 for Squadra! www.squadra-tuning.com
tim0172 is offline  
(Post Link) post #20 of 32 Old 17-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
I do not want to swap engines, this one apparently is rock solid and has been babied its whole life...would rather stick with a known reliable engine...

I was under the impression from my reading that the intake runners for the 12v 2.5 and the 24v were different shapes and thus not swappable? Any definitive word on this before I try and source some?

Also, I was saying Autodelta chip because apparently Squadra needs 98 RON which is something like 94 octane over here in Canada - very hard to find. The Autodelta I was led to believe could run fine on Shell V-Power 91 octane. Am I wrong?

Thanks for all the help gents!
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ipoh, Malaysia
Posts: 223
The runners are different. For a stock 2.5 V6, the stock intake runners are fine. If you want to do external only mods, you can just upgrade the ECU to megasquirt 3 or something. And maybe headers from PS Schulze Home - PS Harry Schulze GmbH :: englisch . Problem with motronic is tuners are hard to comedy.
75evo is offline  
(Post Link) post #22 of 32 Old 18-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
thanks evo, I am thick so I need it spelled out! I think for now we will be content with induction, the exhaust it already has but with removed cat, and the tune from Autodelta or Squadra. Next summer I will look at RJR cams and then call it a day. So in the end we might have, what, 180hp?
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
RJR has some very nice cams with lots of power, at least for the 8v twin spark and nord engines. I'd be dissapointed if you got stuck with only 180 bhp.

I had my 155 8v running 164 bhp, with just a remap and decat... and if it had bigger injectors or more fuel pressure it would've run more...
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #24 of 32 Old 20-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Since when was the Italian car the reliable one?
AO Member
 
ChaosphereIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
County: Ontario
Posts: 51
Great to hear that the RJR cams work so well. My goal is to get about 200hp-ish and have more usable mid-range torque. Already has a 3" exhaust, will cut the cat out [put back in for e-test of course!] and put in a K&N panel filter with some induction hose going to the front bumper, then Autodelta tune it. That's going to be the mods for this year, but next...

How difficult would it be to do the cam job? Do I just replace the cams or do any other bits need beefing up as well such as valve springs etc. to handle the hotter cams? I am going to get it dyno tuned afterwards as well - do I just go with Tunerpro on the laptop and take it to the tuners? Tuning my 2.0T Saab and R53 MINI were easy, I have a feeling tuning this Alfa will not be...
ChaosphereIX is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ipoh, Malaysia
Posts: 223
Contact festy on alfabb for the whole live tuning kit.

Cams work well, you only need to find the cam buckets when you put in new cams. The cams aren't wild, only about 10.4mm, so everything stock is fine.

One non-engine mod you may like is a 6-speed box from a 156 V6. Nicely stacked ratios. I prefer non-engine mods to the 155 V6. The engine is so sweet, much sweeter than my Alfa 3.0s I have. Prefer to not mess with it too much.

Is your exhaust made by MEXC-S or Unicorse? THey make the best sounding Alfa exhaust. But the cost a heck of a lot of money. My rear muffler is by Arqray, Japan.
75evo is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
boost , power

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome