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(Post Link) post #1 of 30 Old 23-03-13 Thread Starter
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156 2.4 jtd 10v 136 engine tuning

Hello,
I'm new here on the forum so please excuse my newbie questions this is my first alfa
So my car is a 156 sw 2.4 jtd 10v 136bhp ,turbo is almost dead and since i don't have a repair kit for this turbo i decided to replace it with a gtb2260vk (audi 3.0 tdi 240 bhp)

Btw i work in a turbo service so feel free to ask any questions about diesel turbos.

I want to get ~ 200-220 bhp do you think it's possible on stock injectors,also on what boost?As you probably know 2260vk is good for 300 bhp and can do 2.5 bars all day everyday.
Also i checked and my map sensor is a 2.5 bar sensor can you guys tell me a 3 bar map sensor that will fit plug and play ?Bosch part number or from which car/engine to take it would be fine.
Also my tuner told me that the rail pressure sensor reads only 1500 bars and i need another one that reads at least 1700 bars which one do you guys use(part number or from which engine)?
Also let me know about the clutch and gearbox ,i have read that both won't do much above 400nm is that true?
As a diagnostic tool i use multiecuscan (ex-fiatecuscan ) and when i tried to log desired boost ,actual boost and boost selenoid (actuator's duty cycle) i was only able to see only actual boost real value , desired boost and duty cycle were 0 .any idea what might cause this?I tried on other 1.9 jtd 140 bhp and i can see these values as well but not on my car :/
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks.
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200 bhp is possible, around 1.4 bar boost (2.4 bar absolute) with the standard TD2503V turbo and an upgraded intercooler.

to go to 220 bhp you'll need 140/150 bhp injectors. Around that output you'll also reach the limit of the fuel pump.... if you're very lucky and with enough boost you can get +-240 bhp out of it.

the clutch will not hold 400Nm if it's already got some miles on it, the flywheel might complain aswell... The standard gearbox can't cope with 400Nm, because of the weak differential. Fit an upgraded differential like a Q2 or Quaife and the limit will be higher than the fuel system can provide....

You can't see the boost solenoid duty cycle because the turbo actuator reacts directly to the boost (mechanically) like a wastegated turbo of old. either fit a solenoid of the desired level or an extra boost controller.... the vacuum operated solenoid on the gtb2260vk will not work on this car. that's also the reason you can't see the desired boost level, it isn't there.... the turbo is always trying to reach 1 bar boost.
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Thanks for your reply,i find it pretty strange that the gearbox can't hold 100nm more then stock.Which cars haves q2 differential ?Lots of junk yards around here i could find it if i knew some details.How about the 6 speed gearbox from 20v?
Does the 140/150 hp 10v engines haves a vacuum operated solenoid ,maybe i could swap that and copy the vnt control maps from 140/150 tune?
I could use a boost controller but i prefer not to because is not very good for the vnt system ,it often fails ...seen quite a few.
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the gearbow was originally designed for 300Nm maximum. once the differential is upgraded it can handle a lot more, closer to 500Nm. the gearbox on the 20V is a GM box, and has it's own set of problems... including chocolate driveshafts. Q2 was available on the 147Q2 and possibly the GT Q2, their gearbox will be a direct replacement and you'll have 6 gears (5 which are about 10% shorter than orinial, and a 6th which is about 10% longer than your current 5th)... also initially Q2 was available for peanuts from alfa romeo directly but got more expensive than a Quaife recently.

You car doesn't have hardware to control a vacuum solenoid, like the vacuum valve, nor the wiring to connect the valve. I'm pretty sure the 140/150 bhp cars have a different ecu, so the software from those wouldn't work on a 136 ecu. I fitted a GT2256V from a 20V on my 136 but swapped over the boost operated solenoid and made a custom downpipe.

otherwise fit a boostvalve (ball and spring type) so you can dial in a bit more boost...
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Turbo control can be switched from wastegate to VNT in the ECU. But you need to set up all the VNT maps (they are usually zeroed).
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and add the wiring + the valves

the original turbo is not wastegated btw, it's a VNT but with mechanical control similar to a wategated turbo
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yes, that might be the problem then
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@Cuore_Sportivo_155 cheers for the gearbox info.Acording to my research ... on 156 2.4 jtd there are only 2 ecus: edc15c5 and edc15c7 pretty similar ... ,i'm comfortable that some maps can be swapped.
I prefer to leave the mechanical boost controller as a last option.As i said vnt turbos doesn't like boost controllers , shaft is just to thin to hold that much stress for long periods of time.On gas cars shaft is much robust also they don't make pressure as fast as vnt turbos .
I know the car doesn't have the necessary hardware to control the turbo that's why i asked which to take from 140/150 model (wires,valves) .
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doesn't need to be from 140/150... 1.9 jtd will work aswell. can't help you with the wiring, don't know if the pinout is comparable between edc15c5 and c7

otherwise, follow the vacuum line from the turbo back to the valve you need, probably located on the board behind the engine, possibly the same as the one for the egr system
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are you sure Yanko? 136hp has no "n75" at all , It regulates its pressure mechanicaly.

Squadra tuning used to have a special electronic boostcontroller on it, but they don't have it anymore.
But maybe squadra just didn't try hard enough , and there was a way to control it from the ecu itself as yanko says!
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Nope, you and Cuore_Sportivo_155 are right. In this case of mechanical control, you need external electronic controller. Although it migh be interesting to see how would the ECU cope with N75 (L36 is the real Fiat name) attached to the proper ECU pin. Pinouts are shown in elearn.
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had a quick look through some 2.4 136 files and theres something 2 maps after boost map around 7fb98 that looks very much like a n75 map? (1998 cf2 file )
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Hi, I have a 156 2.4 JTD 10V 150BHP. Its the old shape with the upgraded dash (GTA). Can I fit a 6 sp with Q2 to my car? I've heard that this is the best option and possibly cheaper than just buying and fitting a Q2. At the same time I want to get a FImac fitted.

Cheers

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yes you can!
I've got an original q2 gearbox for sale , it'll cost you 1250euro excl shipping
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****, that is expensive, and i have to get it to Dublin!!! :-(
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Quote:
Originally Posted by im570rm View Post
@Cuore_Sportivo_155 cheers for the gearbox info.Acording to my research ... on 156 2.4 jtd there are only 2 ecus: edc15c5 and edc15c7 pretty similar ... ,i'm comfortable that some maps can be swapped.
I prefer to leave the mechanical boost controller as a last option.As i said vnt turbos doesn't like boost controllers , shaft is just to thin to hold that much stress for long periods of time.On gas cars shaft is much robust also they don't make pressure as fast as vnt turbos .
I know the car doesn't have the necessary hardware to control the turbo that's why i asked which to take from 140/150 model (wires,valves) .
Hi, what do you mean by "As i said vnt turbos doesn't like boost controllers , shaft is just to thin to hold that much stress for long periods of time." The shaft has nothing to do with the way the turbo is controlled.
edc15c5 and edc15c7 are pretty similar, but doesn't mean that you can copy maps from one to another. The locations of the maps are different, the values are different, and may be the most important is that some of the maps are not the same size. For example, c7 uses 20x20 and 16x16 SOI maps and c5 uses two 16x16.
Your ECU is EDC15C5, right? I'm 99% sure that your maps are like mine, so:
Turbo Map - 7F7FE(10x16)
Turbo Limiter Map - 7FA74(10x10)
VNT - 7FBD0(10x16)

I'm not sure if the x axis in turbo limiter map is rpms or IQ, but it should be rpms. These are the stock maps. A have searched in AutoData for ECU pins regarding turbo controll, but found nothing. I hope if someone is able to find them.
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File Type: jpg turbo.jpg (154.7 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg turbo_limiter.jpg (107.1 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg vnt.jpg (153.6 KB, 43 views)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsd View Post
Hi, what do you mean by "As i said vnt turbos doesn't like boost controllers , shaft is just to thin to hold that much stress for long periods of time."
Imagine situation, where max boost is capped by external electronic boost controller, so excessive boost is vented (or recirculated), but ECU request higher boost so VNT vanes are completely closed (to maximize air velocity), and the shaft is overrevying like a mad and turbo still can't catch the ECU requested boost.

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the main problem is actually that the gtb turbos haves a very unique vnt system that helps the turbo to spool very fast ...a lot faster then turbos with old vnt system .I have seen 2260vk making 2 bars @ 2000 rpm on a vw 1.9 tdi which is a lot for any engine ...this turbo can easly kill your engine if the boost is not limited at low rpm .Newer gtb generation 2260vk haves same vnt system but is ball bearing which makes the turbo spool even faster then old 2260vk .

Anyway some small update with my car...i have installed the turbo ...adjusted via boost controller for now untill i can find other solution.
For the moment i haven't found a edc15c5 software to copy the vnt maps if any1 haves it please let me know.
Planning to install the 16v rail pressure sensor does any know if it works?

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Just check what sensor you have. 1800 bar one in 16v has M18 thread, while old 1500bar has M12 thread and only some has M18 thread.
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Hey guyz,now i actually tested the turbo pressure and drove the car ,turbo actually doesnt make 1 bar from 2000 to 5000 rpm it makes 0.2 bars @ 2000 rpm 0.5 bars @ 3000 rpm 1.5 bars @ 3500 rpm .I tried different settings of the stopscrew also changed the actuator with one with a stronger spring and adjust it,no real difference...I also too off the boost source from the actuator and no difference :/ It pretty ilogical this type of setup when vanes are fully closed turbo should make boost as fast as possible i just can't bealive that 2260v is too large for this engine and cannot make decent boost under 3000 rpm../ No leaks found , the vnt arm is as short as possible i just can't explain it.
I have 0 experience with this setup (mechanically controlled vnt) but i have some experience with ecu controlled vnt....i thought maybe i should change the actuator with a pull type one and use a vacuum source from vacuum pump ( or use the egr valve for example ) and control the turbo boost via boost controller (i don't even know if the boost controller i have now works with vacuum)
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Did you check that the vanes are really closed?
Lever on stop screw should give full boost
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i'll take off the downpipe tomorrow and see if the vanes fully closes,also i'll try to measure emp that should give me a straight answer where the problem is.
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what is the boost controller seeing/reporting? if the boiost controller thinks he's getting more than 1 bar for some reason, you've found your problem.

try without the boost controller and see if the pressure rises quickly.
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Fixed!Some of the vnt vanes were bended for some reason...changed the vane pack and now works ok 1 bar small overboost 1.1 @ spooling !Turbo spools a lot faster then old one.Now i'm waiting for the tune .
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1.4 bar is enough for 200 bhp, and your turbo shouldn't have a problem delivering that. you also can still use your current MAP sensor.

all other fuel system parts are strong enough for that power level aswell, but not much higher. if you get some 140/150 bhp injectors you could go higher, to the limit of the high pressure pump (220-240 bhp). You'd need a 16V map sensor though and likely 1.6-1.8 bar boost (and definitely a proper intercooler)
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