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(Post Link) post #1 of 17 Old 16-03-13 Thread Starter
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159 2.4 jtdm

Me and a mate are going to buy a pretty buggered 159 2.4JTDM as a project to work on over the next couple of years.

First thing we need to do is get the car back in regular working condition, strip the engine out and buy a couple of new parts in.. MAF sensor, EGR, panel re-paint, new injector and wiring loom, clutch has gone and will need upgrading as the amount of power we plan to put through this thing hopefully will be a lot.

Bar DPF / EGR / Remap / Suspension / Air filters and a bit of weight loss. What else is cooking to get more BHP? Anyone hit 350HP?

Looking around it's hard to find decent after market parts, looks like where going to go down the scrappers butcher route..
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[QUOTE=Shadowamd;5254971] What else is cooking to get more BHP? Anyone hit 350HP?
QUOTE]

Lol yes,the engine can take it no problem,what transmission are you going to use??????????????

Check JBSmiths and Clogz's threads and you will find out about mods (that we and they have done) and parts.
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(Post Link) post #4 of 17 Old 17-03-13 Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=ALFA TUNER;5255233]
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Originally Posted by Shadowamd View Post
What else is cooking to get more BHP? Anyone hit 350HP?
QUOTE]

Lol yes,the engine can take it no problem,what transmission are you going to use??????????????

Check JBSmiths and Clogz's threads and you will find out about mods (that we and they have done) and parts.
Aha, thanks guys.. When it actually moves I'll bring it to you guys for a re-map.. It's mainly a learning exercise for us.! Where IT techy's passionate about cars ..

I've been looking around for transmissions and I'm not sure what to replace it with a good old dog tooth can get more power to the road (Apparently ), I'm also unsure as to what stresses the original gearbox can take TBH?

We just got quotes on:

An upgraded custom Sach's Clutch kit.
An Engine displacement upgrade and port polish (3K for that alone )
Eibach springs / Dampners etc.
Upgraded rear disks

Just checking out Clogz thread, very nice stuff sir.. Very nice.

Last edited by Shadowamd; 17-03-13 at 23:17.
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(Post Link) post #5 of 17 Old 17-03-13 Thread Starter
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So List to do:

1.Find a spares and repair car to work on, hopefully minimum panel damage if any.

2. Find a Q4 edition if possible, if not try and find a way to do a 4wd conversion if possible.

3. Upgrade transmission: Going to contact a gearbox specialist, see what he can do or try and find an upgrade from somewhere, looks like it needs to support 400Bhp and 600 Nm.. I'll keep it under on a remap for longevity.

5. Rip engine out send it to increase displacement or at least get it to maximum efficiency.

4. Upgrade Turbo to GTB2265 thanks Clogz

5. Go with a Methanol / Water injection

6. Upgrade FMIC to keep things cool.

7. Upgrade injectors (Maybe Piezo? Anyone tried it) and High pressure fuel pump (Any ideas on this?)

8. Sort out the air intake and filters (Thanks again Clogz)

9. Start putting it back together and upgrade the clutch while I'm at it.

10. Put better pads on it.

11. Put some TI rimmage on it.

12. Get it taxed and MOT'd as it will be SORN most likely.

13. Get it to AHM and have it re-mapped, EGR removed (Probably put a new exhaust on it).

14. Go see a doctor because I must be ****ing insane!..

EDIT: Thanks for people's input..

Last edited by Shadowamd; 18-03-13 at 01:25.
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you'll need bigger injection parts... HP pump and injectors
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(Post Link) post #7 of 17 Old 18-03-13 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
you'll need bigger injection parts... HP pump and injectors
Thanks .. I was looking at piezo injectors, but struggling to find if anyone's had a crack at doing them.?

Any suggestions on a HP pump too?

Sorry I will be asking many many daft questions.!
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If you get piezo injectors, you need an ecu that can cope with them. unlike elctohydraulic injectors, they need a seperate signal to open and to close...

Never looked into the HP pumps for the 20V engines, but I suggest you start looking among the engines with a similar output to what you want to achieve.... BMW, mercedes etc... Bosch is the brand you'll need
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(Post Link) post #9 of 17 Old 18-03-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
If you get piezo injectors, you need an ecu that can cope with them. unlike elctohydraulic injectors, they need a seperate signal to open and to close...

Never looked into the HP pumps for the 20V engines, but I suggest you start looking among the engines with a similar output to what you want to achieve.... BMW, mercedes etc... Bosch is the brand you'll need
Great idea, the only cars I have which comes close at the moment is the Audi A8 4.2 TDI Quattro @ 346 Bhp, Ford Super Duty which is a Pickup truck @ 395 BHP..

I'll start digging and see what's in them, issue is most powerful diesels have higher displacements and more cylinders.

Last edited by Shadowamd; 18-03-13 at 12:23.
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on fuelling id see if yanko chips in as he did a pump swap in his 8v jtd and also did a pump shaft swap and drive pully swap to give him near exact flow for his goals.(goes on several pages on pump stuff)
im sure something similar would be possible if you max out std pump flow.
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...-turbo-10.html
on injectors I think this was biggest thread I remember
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...jectors-3.html
what nm hp figures can be had at max pump pressure 1800bar and max safe injector duration? you may find figure already quite high.
I have a 20v jtdm file not sure what hardware but looks like 18000bar @1014u/sec =iq 100mm3 I think 1080u/sec or so may be limit around 30deg btdc top end?
at 2500rpm it shows 500nm =86.80mm3(minus losses,really probably 450nm )
I did a 2.4 exdended iq nm map a while ago not sure if accurate?to 600nm
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...m-nm-to-iq.xls
[email protected]
if it can supply [email protected](560nm on road)
I think you need to find out how maxed out clogz and jbs were on their 300+hp runs fuel wise
looking at clogz dyno just fuel approx. 512nm @4000rpm +66nm losses =578nm=110mm3 just under
this is dyno I was ref to
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...d-p1040345.jpg
by the way these fuel nm figures will improve with your decat,dpf removal larger compressor etc.
gearbox wise is it f40? just q2 diff or quaife needed?

Last edited by sussexa; 18-03-13 at 16:59.
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(Post Link) post #11 of 17 Old 18-03-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sussexa View Post
on fuelling id see if yanko chips in as he did a pump swap in his 8v jtd and also did a pump shaft swap and drive pully swap to give him near exact flow for his goals.(goes on several pages on pump stuff)
im sure something similar would be possible if you max out std pump flow.
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...-turbo-10.html
on injectors I think this was biggest thread I remember
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...jectors-3.html
what nm hp figures can be had at max pump pressure 1800bar and max safe injector duration? you may find figure already quite high.
I have a 20v jtdm file not sure what hardware but looks like 18000bar @1014u/sec =iq 100mm3 I think 1080u/sec or so may be limit around 30deg btdc top end?
at 2500rpm it shows 500nm =86.80mm3(minus losses,really probably 450nm )
I did a 2.4 exdended iq nm map a while ago not sure if accurate?to 600nm
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...m-nm-to-iq.xls
[email protected]
if it can supply [email protected](560nm on road)
I think you need to find out how maxed out clogz and jbs were on their 300+hp runs fuel wise
looking at clogz dyno just fuel approx. 512nm @4000rpm +66nm losses =578nm=110mm3 just under
this is dyno I was ref to
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...d-p1040345.jpg
by the way these fuel nm figures will improve with your decat,dpf removal larger compressor etc.
gearbox wise is it f40? just q2 diff or quaife needed?
As far as I know it's GM F40, I've sent a quote for custom injectors.. I doubt the 210 BOSH injectors (Which I think is the largest in the Alfa / Fiat diesel group) is going to cut it @ 375 / 600nm..

Although the higher output Audi Bosh injectors could be an idea.. but they only work with a 550c cylinder so it looks like a re-bore is needed.

Interesting to see.. just looking through other threads.

It's becoming difficult even to source the parts ..
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(Post Link) post #12 of 17 Old 18-03-13 Thread Starter
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I'm struggling to find parts for it, would it just be easier to transplant and engine and "Make" it fit?

Last edited by Shadowamd; 18-03-13 at 23:32.
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just question:

what for?

i drove the 159 2.4 - 210bhp
from my experiance - comparing it to a 156 (just the car)

it's way to heavy - no wonder it's got he brembos anything else would vaporize once stopping is needed.
it's no half the fun car to drive as a stock 156 Sedan... altough the 159 had sport package with 235mm tires lowered and stuff... it is just fat - almost like moby dick on nimble roads.
Build quality is next to no difference to my phase II 156, so
whatever you do - even with this marvellous 2.4 engine you won't be faster not even as fast or more compfortable than a 156 would be if equaly well rebuild...

so get it moving, use it every day and enjoy the big car while lookinh at it and spend your little fortune on a car which actually can be a fast car (whatever you do it wont compensate 300-400 kg)....


apart from not understanding your intention i'm still curious what is going to happen here..

Selling a Brembo Upgrade for 156's, Project Mu Pads (New) and fitting brake lines (new).

link to the thread
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(Post Link) post #14 of 17 Old 19-03-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Sheep View Post
just question:

what for?

i drove the 159 2.4 - 210bhp
from my experiance - comparing it to a 156 (just the car)

it's way to heavy - no wonder it's got he brembos anything else would vaporize once stopping is needed.
it's no half the fun car to drive as a stock 156 Sedan... altough the 159 had sport package with 235mm tires lowered and stuff... it is just fat - almost like moby dick on nimble roads.
Build quality is next to no difference to my phase II 156, so
whatever you do - even with this marvellous 2.4 engine you won't be faster not even as fast or more compfortable than a 156 would be if equaly well rebuild...

so get it moving, use it every day and enjoy the big car while lookinh at it and spend your little fortune on a car which actually can be a fast car (whatever you do it wont compensate 300-400 kg)....


apart from not understanding your intention i'm still curious what is going to happen here..
I had 2 X 156 2.4 175 on a 04 and 2005 plate before the 159 210.. The 156 feels much slower to me, I also prefer the 159 in pretty much every way to the 156..

I own a stock 159, I bought another 159 and it is just a project really, a spares or repairs build-up (Cost £1200.00 for the car).. I have two options really I can have a fun project for the next couple of years, or do it up and sell it on.

But it looks like turning it into a power hungry monster is not do-able at the moment.. I can't find a compatible upgrade for the injector or pump.. The transmission would have to come from something able to take the power, the only thing I can find is an automatic Audi transmission.. Which I don't want an automatic so that's out the window.
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(Post Link) post #15 of 17 Old 19-03-13 Thread Starter
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Ok, so looks like trying to get 375Bhp out of a diesel 2.4 is silly and extremely difficult to do as I contacted around 10 places to get injectors and pump, nobody want's to deal with it.

Looking at going down the engine transplant route, speaking with an engineer / designer.. It's possible, just need to find one that fits..

Looked at an M3 engine with transmission,.. (Anything that's powerful for a laugh)..

Heard quite a few issues with 335d engine's needing to be rebuilt, so ummm just a big petrol looks like the way to go.

Or I can stop looking at crazy figures and follow Clogz thread ..

Last edited by Shadowamd; 19-03-13 at 21:14.
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right, transplanting a rwd bmw engine is obviously the most promising way to go....
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right, transplanting a rwd bmw engine is obviously the most promising way to go....
Ok, if you know the right way to go, any ideas?

I can get 265 Bhp from just a remap and dpf / egr delete, so it's not worth a 30 or 40Bhp increase over that.. If I'm going to do it, it really needs to be worth it.. Coupled with I don't think it's a bright idea to put that sort of power through a FWD car, I'm going to have to convert it anyway..

Last edited by Shadowamd; 19-03-13 at 22:30.
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