V6 2.0 Turbo with centrifugal supercharger - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 91 Old 06-03-13 Thread Starter
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V6 2.0 Turbo with centrifugal supercharger

Hi,

I was thinking about replacing the turbo of a 2 liters Busso V6 by a centrifugal supercharger.
Basically, I would change the exhaust headers and route the forced induction of the supercharger toward the stock intercooler. The objective would be to try to keep most stock parts as possible.
I guess it would look like one of those Autodelta supercharged V6 engines.
If i choose a size of supercharger equivalent the size of the stock turbo, would i need to remap the ECU?

Thanks.
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(Post Link) post #2 of 91 Old 07-03-13 Thread Starter
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Long story short, a GTV 2.0 V6 TB is for sale but the turbo needs replacement.
I haven't found a lot of information about modifying those engines, people seem to favour the higher displacements Alfa V6. The consequences of the 2 liters V6 not being very popular is that it makes it much more affordable.
I never drove one, i dont' know is there is turbo lag or else, but i enjoy the sound they make and they have a good power output.
Like stated before, the plan would be to replace the turbo system by a centrifugal supercharger.
What you think would be the major obstacles i would stumble upon?
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Quite lot work will be spent on reworking TB to supercharger. Be prepared for about 2.5+ kEUR outcomes.
Turbo map should be modified to match compressor output to make ECU not complain about pressure differencies. It would work then I think.
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(Post Link) post #4 of 91 Old 08-03-13 Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input. Work time isn't a problem, it is supposed to be entertaining.
If the engine is healthy, that amount of money your talking about will be spent, mostly, in the supercharger, the exhaust headers and the ECU, right?
About this engine's ECU, it is possible a shop to make a custom map and reflash the stock ECU? Are piggyback preferred on those engine? Are even aftermarket ECUs?
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2.5k EUR costs just the Rotrex supercharger kit.

Imho it's a bit pitty to rework turbocharger to supercharger in this case. I would rather look for modern (less laggy) ball bearing turbocharger. Keep stock ECU, just get proper remap.
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Does seem to make more sense to just replace the turbo with a small amount of fabrication than shoe horn in a super charger.

Still I'd be interested to see the outcome. Least on boost pressure would be linear.
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(Post Link) post #7 of 91 Old 09-03-13 Thread Starter
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I agree, the most reasonable thing to do, in all aspects, would be to replace the turbo by a new one, but, the supercharger seem so much more interesting.

Do you have any info about the amount of power this engine's internals can take? And the torque the gearbox can handle? Also, how far would i be able to take the engine's power without having to change parts of the fuel system? Since i'd have to remap, i could choose a size of supercharger to try to extract the maximum power output, keeping most stock parts as possible.
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(Post Link) post #8 of 91 Old 12-03-13 Thread Starter
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Is there anyone that can dissipate my aforementioned doughts?
I always have trouble finding information on this engine.
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Hi,

i have a 1996 Alfa GTV V6 tb and replace the original Garrett T-25 Turbo with a Mitsubishi TD05H-12B Turbo from a Alfa 164 V6 tb. It fits straight on at early GTV tb`s. This would be a interesting way to replace a broken T-25 when you find one. This Mitsubishi Turbos are easy to rebuild and upgradeable on the compressor side.
I have upgraded it with a much bigger EVO3 Big 16G compressor wheel and cover.

But the mainrestriction on this engine are the 190ccm fuelinjectors. They are only good for up to ~240HP with higher fuel pressure. I replaced it with 240ccm ones from a Alfa 164 3.0 24V Q4.

It runs with original ECUs and custom made chips for now. With max. 1,2 bar boost and ~330 HP / 450 NM !!!
But this year i will replace the ECUs with a Megasquirt 2 ECU, change to 315ccm injectors and diffrend camshafts from Colombo & Bariani.

This 2.0 V6 tb engines are strong and good for up to 400HP !!! all standard, unopened.
Gearboxes are strong too but the differentials are a weak point. Max. ~500NM i think.

So i hope this would change your supercharger ideas. ;-)

Bye, Martin
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(Post Link) post #10 of 91 Old 14-03-13 Thread Starter
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Thanks for the valuable information. It sounds like you've got a fun ride! Do you have videos of it?

In the eventuality of a custom longitudinal front engine, rear wheel drive application of this engine, do you know an Alfa Romeo gearbox that could fit without major modifications?
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Thanks. Sorry no videos at now but i will make some.

Just a lille one from the turboupgrade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhb71SWHG10

Yeah it`s like night and day with that setup now. With that tiny T-25 boost comes in from ~2000 rpms, then it rises to full boost with a little hammer at ~3000 rpms and from 5000 rpms on it has much asthma.

With that bigger TD05H-EVO3-Big-16G it has quite more turbolag but i like that.
Boost comes in now at 3000 rpms, rise to full boost at 4500 rpms. But boost comes in much smother and at 6000 rpms it pulls very hard now, without asthma.

I hope with the new C&B camshafts the brathe of the engine will be much better than now and with less lag.
They have 1.15mm more lift and much more durations on the intakevalves and less overlap what is very important on turboengines.

Sorry i have no experience on longitudinal engines and gearboxes. My first Alfa was a 1987 164 3.0 V6 and a other GTV V6 tb before.

Bye, Martin

Last edited by Cornholio; 14-03-13 at 14:20.
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The differential in the gearbox is the same as the one in the GTA gearboxes... those don't have eternal life even with 300Nm. Best bet would be to fit an upgraded differential, like a Quaife or Q2.
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Forum member "Il Busso" with his 3.0 Turbo GTV breaks one at over 500NM. And mine lives for over 5000 km at 450NM without a breake. So i think its not the same...

But a upgrade to a Q2 or a quaife diff. is allways a good choice.
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the difference is, with a normally aspirated engine the torque comes all at once when you go from coasting to acellerating. that's from a negative load to (possibly) 300Nm in a fraction of a second.

With a turbo (petrol or diesel) you get first a light load, then the turbo spools up and the rest of the torque gets applied... in case of 2.0 tb it'll be something like negative load -> 150Nm -> turbo spools up and load increases to max.

That's why the JTD with the same differential again (but higher gearing which also minimizes torque on the differential) seems to last better aswell.

5000 km is hardly proof of reliability. The differential should last the lifetime of the car.... But the major issue is that you can't chance it as a broken differential might destroy the complete gearbox.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
This 2.0 V6 tb engines are strong and good for up to 400HP !!! all standard, unopened.
Gearboxes are strong too but the differentials are a weak point. Max. ~500NM i think.
Sorry, but I don't agree with you on this. This engines weak point are the pistons. Even on stock engine, they are not very reliable, because of the engine placement. That is why, 99% of the time, the 3rd piston goes bad on these engines. The one, farthest away from the water pump. Stock conrods on the other hand are very strong and capable of ~500PS. But like with every engine, tuning requires supported mods so that the whole engine works well. On this engine, most of the stock components are maxed out at around 300-330ps...

As for the gearbox, V6TB gearbox is by far the strongest 5-speed box in any Italian car. But since everyone tortures these cars in 1st & 2nd gear, most of them have worn out syncro's & gears...
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go Garrett GT2560, can deliver up to 320bhp but spools fast enough to gererate positive boost close to 2000rpm jet wont get astmatic at 6.800...
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@ Peruccy: Running to lean is the main reason for a melted piston. Its very important on a turboengine to runing rich enough on all cylinders. Not all injectors have the same fuelflow, so some cylinders are runing rich and some others are runing to lean. The other reason is to cool the pistons/valves with fuel.

The first and important thing is to install a wideband lambda controller/gauge when you want tune a turboengine.
Mine is runing at full boost with a Air Fuel Ratio of up to 10.2 AFR.
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10.2 AFR sounds too low to me. But definitely it has to be tuned with eye on EGT.
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Yeah i know it runs to rich with 10.2 AFR but better than runing to lean on one cylinder. I dont have the injectors flowtested so i dont know which cylinder is runing to lean or to rich. As i heard from a professional Enginetuner that a 10.7 AFR where a good save AFR.

The problem is i cant modify the original ML4.1/EZ212K ECUs Chips on my own. So i will switch to a selfmade/mapable Megasquirt 2 ECU this year and maxing out my current fitted 240ccm injectors and then i switch to bigger 315ccm ones.

A other very important tool for tuning a turboengine is a Exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor. But this is more for professional tuning/racing i think....
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Do you know what boost are you running with the bigger turbo?
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1.2-1.25 bar from 4500 to 6500 rpms
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(Post Link) post #22 of 91 Old 16-03-13 Thread Starter
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@ Cornholio
What power figures are you expecting to reach after changing the ECU, the camshafts and the injectors?
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I think so 350-360HP and max. 500 NM to be on a save side. But i really dont know how the cams will perform. I dont have any experience with other camshafts. But they are much more like the naturally aspirated enginecams. So i will have much more Power at the same boostlevels. And i hope less turbolag. But i will see.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
The differential in the gearbox is the same as the one in the GTA gearboxes... those don't have eternal life even with 300Nm. Best bet would be to fit an upgraded differential, like a Quaife or Q2.


C503 gearbox differential is not the same as C530 gearbox diff...part number are different,even though they look very similar,they have different heating treatment...on my >550nm Gtv,everytime the gearbox failed (bearings,housings) diff was absolutly ok...
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Well, both gearboxes were designed for much less torque then you think guys ...

gearbox.jpg

http://www.claesrevisie.be/cd/Indust...ptoverview.pdf

Last edited by yan.ko; 17-03-13 at 13:17.
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