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(Post Link) post #1 of 25 Old 19-09-12 Thread Starter
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Alfa Romeo 145 Time Attack project build

Hello guys,

Starting this thread, because i really will need your help, while building my 1st Italian Time Attack car. Since now I have some experience with German cars, mainly the C20XE engine on old OPEL platforms. I know, C20XE is monsterous N/A engine!!! So capable, so reliable and so well designed. But that's past, now i have good Alfa Romeo 145 with swapped 2000 16V TS engine and i love it, I love the response, the way how it revs on 2nd and 3rd gears.....It is good engine, despite of what other people talks, i think the Italians made a good N/A engine.

So, I decide to build the car for my new hobby -Time Attack series. I participated 2 event last month and overall i am pretty happy with the car, but i need to modify many thinks, thats why I decided full build, to make it proper.

The Car

I bought the car before 1.5 years, fro ma guy from our Alfa Romeo club here in my country. It was bargain, and I decided to buy it and store it, and to start work over it when time comes. I do not have enough time for building my cars, thats why usually i pay to workshops to do this instead of me. Time is money, and my time is really limited. I am manager in Hewlett-Packard company and oftenly I do not have time at all for my hobbies. So when i build a car, I create the Project Plan and then delegate the work over several workshops. But this time, I want to build the car from the scratch and I want to manage the most of the work. On other hand finance are limited too, because I bough new home before several weeks, and the Nismo GTR ***** will have to stay in my dreams for while I have no other choice, i have to build the little Alfa....
The car is Alfa Romeo 145, originally was with 1600 16V TS engine, then swapped to 2000 16V TS, just before I bought it from the local Alfa club. The engine is equiped with Colombo&Bariani Massimo Street cams, injectors from Saab Turbo, OSRAV Sport Kit suspention, Group N remap, Eta Beta lightweight rally wheels.

Here some pics of the car from my last track days:

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...00954687_n.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...78844821_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...08117706_n.jpg

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...39214298_n.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...46875603_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...44999195_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...87681351_o.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto..._5649346_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._6695000_o.jpg

Club Alfa Romeo Bulgaria

Club Alfa Romeo Bulgaria

Overall the car is OK, but i am not happy with the performance, with handling with steering, with one word, I have to manage to fix almost the whole car.
The engine's performance is nice, but I need more, a lot more and i want to stay to N/A scheme. So my questions are:
1. Is there more agressive cams for this engine, because the C&B Massimo Street are not enough!!
2. Are there options for ITBs for this engine?
3. Currently i am with gearbox from 1600cc engine, is the gearbox from 2000cc Cloverleaf better?

The suspension is OSRAV Sport Kit, dampering adjustable, but it seems it need to be hardened because it is too soft, and i had turn the switch to hardest position!! So my questions:
1. How can i make the OSRAV kit hardener ?
2. Suggest me some good options for coilovers for this car. I need a dampering control for sure and i want to be good for track use mainly!
3. Swaybars? What and from where?
4. Camber plates? From where?

So lets stop here, i will have many more questions, but lets first sort those problems and then wil lgo ahead.
Thank you in advance for your advices guys. I know that you have much more knowledge on building proper Alfa Romeo track car, so i will definatley need your help and advices.

PS: Hey, why there is no option to insert pics, but only URLs?

Best Regards
Angel Uzunov

Alfa Romeo 166 2.4 JTD (GTB2256V, Extreme remaped, 1.7bar boost, straight exhaust system, Brembo 4pod brake system 330mm brake discs); Alfa Romeo 145 QV (Colombo&Bariani 272 cams, Extreme remaped, JR cone intake, 240cc Saab turbo injectors, Supersprint 4-2-1 manifold + cat back system, O.S.R.A.V. Sport Kit suspension)
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(Post Link) post #2 of 25 Old 20-09-12 Thread Starter
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I need ideas guys!!
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Cam's you can get any company to make you custom cams or get your own reground to whatever lift and duration you like. Get rid of the balance belt off the 2l engine also you don't need it for racing.

Suspension, check out an english company called Gaz Coilovers they will make you any kind of custom valved suspension you like but be aware suspension isn't cheap not for good suspension. Don't really need camber plates on them as you can adjust them if at the bottom of the suspension if you want to do that otherwise you will need custom top mounts made to be able to adjust the camber properly with the strut.

The 2l gearbox is just longer than the 1.6 and has a slightly taller 5th gear the rest aren't really all that different.
 
(Post Link) post #4 of 25 Old 23-09-12 Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

So, as Demien said, i send an email to GAZ in order to provide me a price list for the following models suspensions:

GAZ DA Adjustable Coilovers
GAZ GP Coilover Adjustable Dampers
GAZ GOLD PRO Adjustable Coilovers
GAZ GT Adjustable Dampers

Also i asked them, if they are able to supply only dampers with damping and rebound control for Alfa Romeo 145. Let's wait until they provide me with feedback regarding my request.
Meanwhile I searched the market for other possible options for suspension kits for 145 platform (typo 930). I found several available coilover kits with prices between 600-900: List below is from cheapest to highest price:


1. Apex RDX Coilovers - don't know anything about this brand. As i understand, this model is only height adjustable with full suspension travel. But there was no information if this kit have damper adjustable. Price: 497.00 (inc. VAT)

2. Koni Sport Suspension Kits - 4 levels of damper adjustment, but no height adjustment. Will lower your car approx 35-40mm predefined. It is not coilover. High quality of dampers and springs. The interesting here is the Lifetime warranty, which the company offers to its customers. I am not sure how good this suspension kit is, but definitely Koni yellows are great dampers. Price: 631.00 (inc. VAT)

3. FK Konigsport Coilovers - not many information about this, the only thing i heard, that this is the best coilover kit from FK manufacturer, because they use Koni Sport (yellows) dampers as a base for this package. This mean, that you will have 4 stage damper control and good quality from Koni! Price: 664.00 (inc. VAT)

4. H&R Monotube Coilovers - Height adjustment from 25mm-60mm and 30% up-rated sport dampers. I was informed by H&R, that the dampers are Koni, so here we have high quallity build too. No damper adjustment available for this package. Also in their website, i found only for Alfa 155, there was no option for 145, but as we all know, it will fit perfectly to Alfa 145 model. I do not know why they did not listed the Alfa 145 as option too. Price: 791.00 (inc. VAT)

5. KW Variant 1 Coilovers - i only know that they are expensive!! KW is high quality brand, but no idea about Variant1 handling potential. Price : 819.00 (inc. VAT)

So, i will have to decide, which one will suit the best for my project. I definitely do not prefer to pay more than 600 for suspension kit, so i have to check other options like 4 dampers + 4 springs. For example 4 Koni's or Bilstein B6 + 4 springs. Maybe it will cost less.

I have ordered full polybushes kit for Alfa Rome 145 from a local manufacturer.
Also i bought FIAT 20VT 4 pot Brembo calipers.

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...54673460_n.jpg

I will have to start searching for bigger wheels now, 16" or 17". I am not sure, which size is more suitable. Here the main dilemma is, which race tyre size is cheaper: the 16" or 17"? And which is easier to find on the market.

After coffee conversation with one friend from motorsport, I am now thinking, if i should stick with Alfa Romeo 2000cc 16V TS engine, or should i swap it with FIAT 2000cc 16V engine from Coupe, Delta HPE etc. The main question is, which engine is more suitable for motorsport, reliability and mainly the build cost? Now i am checking this and will post when i have results. You can help me here, too.
So for now i am still on collecting information level. Meanwhile i bought several things, but the build is not yet started. I drove the car to the garage where I will start building it, with the help from guys from local workshops.

Best Regards
Angel Uzunov
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I've had Variant 2's and they would be no where near enough for the road too soft as a friend now uses them in his 155 track car and it's brilliant for the road but not for the track you need fairly solid suspension for the track. I have owned Ebiachs and Bilsteins off an ex race car 147 and my lord they are hard barely any movement in them but they are just perfect for the track.
 
(Post Link) post #6 of 25 Old 24-09-12 Thread Starter
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Hi Damien,

Thanks for your feedback. So what do you suggest for track use: Bilstein B6 Sport + Eibach Pro Kit?


Regards
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I have no idea about the spring rates in the racing suspension I sent Blistein an email before but they never got back to me, I never emailed Eibach about the springs. But you need them set up for the weight of the car correctly there is some chaps on here that race the 145's
 
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forget the suspension options listed and go for AST as they make what you need and also manufacture adjustable top mounts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SediciRich View Post
forget the suspension options listed and go for AST as they make what you need and also manufacture adjustable top mounts.
Same goes for D2 racing shocks - you can spec the spring rate and top mount will be camber adjustable for 145 - my 156 is not adjustable because of double wishbone. It is height adjustable and damp rate adjustable.

Talking about wheels - The Brakes from the Fiat is the same size as the 2002 156 GTA 305mm - they work inside 16" wheels (only difference is 4 hole not 5 hole). But you need rims that go quite wide out to clear the caliper. 16" semi-slick rubber here in SA is nearly 1/2 the price as 17". The best is to ask the other race guys where they buy the wheels and then you ask the supplier what is the most popular sizes?

I run 205/50R16 as is is the same price as the 195/55R15 and 1/2 the price of the 225/45R17 - these are all club standard sizes. Smaller wheel gives you shorter gears - perfect for track use - as is the 1600 gearbox - also shorter gears than the 2000 gearbox.

Last edited by Gertie; 17-10-12 at 10:14.
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Quote:
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forget the suspension options listed and go for AST as they make what you need and also manufacture adjustable top mounts.
I don't think that will fit in his price range................
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And concerning the KW suspension, look at their website:

http://kw-suspension.com/us/kw_variant_1.php

The KW 1 line in non-adjustable and definately not suited for track-day use. It's their entry system and suited for road use, as are the other options that you mention. Just do some internet research and you will find out that just a set of normal dampers and lowering springs (which you already have) will not do.

For instance take a look at the KW, AST or Intrax website, they all have extensive racing experience:
http://www.intraxracing.nl/?cat=productpage&id=425&title=Products
http://www.intraxracing.nl/?lang=EN

And since the budget that you're on, the car that you have and the modification already done to you're engine I would not change anything to the engine. Other modifications are expensive. Put that money in a good suspension (set-up) and loose weight (from the car ofcourse ) for example by using light weight body parts and removing the interior (if not already done).

And concerning the 1.6 gearbox that you use; stick with it. It will improve acceleration in gear, and you don't need the top end speed given by the probably higher geared 2.0 gearbox.

Wheels and tires; just compare internet tire prices of both 16" and 17" track-day tires and make a choice. Mayby even consider 15", they are def. cheaper, and larger (and heavier) wheels doesn't necessarily mean higher cornering speeds. Also depending on the brakes that you (want to) use ofcourse.

Last edited by OneManShow2; 04-11-12 at 15:38.
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onemanshow is right loose weight cut out everything you dont need, remove emmisions gear, excess wiring for non essential systems. Rear arms are very heavy in a 145 so maybe compare Gtv subframe weight, or look at 156 conversion (needs fabrication to body shell).
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GTV rear suspension is a viable alternative but although it is aluminum its still heavy thanks to its complex design.
156 147 and GT rear suspension is completely different and will need extensive changes on the structure. Easier and probably cheaper to use a 147.
we did upgrade my GTV's front suspension to the 156 double wishbone setup and it really helped a lot especially with a v6 turbo motor that had to be manhandled around a track.
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GTV rear suspension is a viable alternative but although it is aluminum its still heavy thanks to its complex design.
Really? Haven't thought to go that far with mine. Just bought a Fiat Coupe / Brava front ARB to make it handle a bit better.

Anyway I'm really interest to know more about the above mentioned upgrade? Is it a direct swap? Any serious modifications necessary?
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Thanks guys for all your answers in my topic. Really appreciate your help. Unfortunately i sold the Alfa 145, because i dont want to deal anymore with typo 930. This platform is pretty old now, and there are no enough performance parts for it. I am looking for Alfa 147 now, but I think to stick to 1.6 16V TS motor, in order to build it as Super 1600 specs. Will keep you posted.

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The 147 has double wishbone suspension front, so it is tricky to get a lot of camber - by dropping the suspension you get a bit - maybe even enough. The 1.6 does not have balance shafts - so that is one less thing to do.
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Really? Haven't thought to go that far with mine. Just bought a Fiat Coupe / Brava front ARB to make it handle a bit better.

Anyway I'm really interest to know more about the above mentioned upgrade? Is it a direct swap? Any serious modifications necessary?
you have to change the turret tops, which is challenging.
the rest is bolt on
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Uzunov View Post
Thanks guys for all your answers in my topic. Really appreciate your help. Unfortunately i sold the Alfa 145, because i dont want to deal anymore with typo 930. This platform is pretty old now, and there are no enough performance parts for it. I am looking for Alfa 147 now, but I think to stick to 1.6 16V TS motor, in order to build it as Super 1600 specs. Will keep you posted.

Best Regards
Personally i think it is a better base to start from.
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When i saw how many suspension options i have for the 147 platform, i was astonished, and i decide to sell the 145 and start from scratch with the 147. I decide to search for the 1.6 16V TS version, because i want to participate in the lowest class in our local Time Attack series, which is up to 1603cc of the engine. So i believe the 1.6 twin spark is a good option. There are nice rally cams 300 inlet 310 exhaust, i am aiming at 200-220hp. I want to be capable to "fight" with the Saxos, which are really mean machines. It will be expensive, i know that.
So the searching is ongoing, will keep you posted.
One thing, i have to aim in the 120hp version instead of the 105hp version, right? Whats the difference really?

BR
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The 105hp version doesn't have the cam phase variator on the intake. Other than that, I don't believe they are any different
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So actually the 105hp version is better for my purposes, because i want to install very aggressive racing cams, right? The variator in this case is not preferred.
Another thing, is it possible to put a 2.0 TS head to 1.6 TS block? My idea is to get little bit higher compression ratio, and also bigger valve size?
I believe, this may be possible, but i will have to order new custom pistons, and in this meaning the Group A pistons from Autodelta will be great choice.

Thank you in advance.

BR
Angel Uzunov

Last edited by Angel Uzunov; 09-11-12 at 20:52.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Uzunov View Post
So actually the 105hp version is better for my purposes, because i want to install very aggressive racing cams, right? The variator in this case is not preferred.
If you go wild cams - and use the car is a very narrow rev-range high up I would also NOT use variator. The tracks I drive on needs me to use larger rev ranges otherwise I'll kill my car jamming it into 2nd gear to often. I will stick with my variator for now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Uzunov View Post
Another thing, is it possible to put a 2.0 TS head to 1.6 TS block? My idea is to get little bit higher compression ratio, and also bigger valve size?
I believe, this may be possible, but i will have to order new custom pistons, and in this meaning the Group A pistons from Autodelta will be great choice.
I don't know the smaller differences but looking at figures: It could work bore wise: the 1.6 bore is 82mm and the 2.0 bore is 83mm - the stroke is where the big difference comes in 75mm vs 91mm. I think the 2.0 combustion chamber in the head must be bigger and will LOWER compression on the 1.6 block - I must confirm how does the 1.6 piston look like - the 2.0 is dished. I'll ask TN to confirm.

EDIT: the 1.6 piston is flat where the 2.0 piston is dished - thus I'm thinking the combustion chambers in the heads ARE the same.

Last edited by Gertie; 12-11-12 at 05:28.
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Hi guys,

I didn't write for quite some time, because of lack of time. I have to many projects ongoing in my work, and managing everything is a bit of hard
I just wanted to ask you, a friend of mine, from our local Alfa club, is selling his car - Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6 (24V) for 1500 EUR. The price is really good, but i do not have any idea if this is a good platform for future Time Attack monster.
I did a small research and found, that a set of C&B Corsa cams are costs 2900 British pounds, so its kind of pricey!! I am not sure in what direction i can go with this car, NA or Turbo/SCharged....NA path is very expensive, set of cams + set of ITBs are costs ~5500 EURs, engine management will costs another 1000, so i dont know.
What can i expect from this car, drive ability on track, power, is it reliable engine.....too many questions i know, but I just fell in love in the V6 sound.
Please advice.

Best Regards
Angel Uzunov
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Hi,

I love my 156 TS racer. I also have a 156 V6 which I also built up, but no weight saving done in the V6. I do very similar lap times in the two cars.

The V6 with 6 speed gearbox is about 100kg heavier than the TS, but then the 6 speed box can take the quaffe / Q2 diff easily so understeer will be limited and will not push its nose much more than the TS. The V6 is a very robust engine and will handle low pressure boost (0.5bar) with stock internals.
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