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(Post Link) post #1 of 207 Old 26-04-12 Thread Starter
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New project -156 2.4JTD 20v

Hi guys, let me introduce one project. Alfa 156 2.4 20v. Stock injection, big IC, bigger turbo, stock clutch - SACHS. Cat off. Rail pressure 1600Bar. AFR is 0,98Ł all the time, so almost smokeless.
Here´s a log file:
rpm MAF VNT IQ boost
rpm mg/i % mm³/i mBar
945 493 75 2,91 982
912 478,1 75 42,13 1021
1069 538 75 45,59 1111
1285 596,5 73,99 51,91 1263
1542 725,6 73,95 67,71 1653
1891 1202,8 56,1 100 2648
2445 1726,2 42,05 100 2996
3052 1559 50,18 99,84 2877
3579 1380 48,39 100 2819
3987 1302,6 50,02 100 2809
4328 1236,1 44,52 100 2690
4637 1133 45,58 93,4 2635
4914 1036,9 36,8 85,98 2484
What do you think about performance? How much could it be? I hope 240-250 HP.
1/4 mile about 13 seconds.

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Originally Posted by sarkan View Post
What do you think about performance? How much could it be? I hope 240-250 HP.
1/4 mile about 13 seconds.
156 2.4 jtdm with 240-250hp 13 sec on a 1/4 mile? ... Not really. More like low 14's
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it was 'only' 175bhp to start with in 156 jtd m-jet 20v format, so to hope to gain another 75bhp is bloody optamistic I think.
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Originally Posted by Artermis View Post
it was 'only' 175bhp to start with in 156 jtd m-jet 20v format, so to hope to gain another 75bhp is bloody optamistic I think.

240-250hp is the maximum of 2.4 JTDm's turbo ( gt2256v ). I gained 74hp on a 136hp Unijet.
He can easily gain 220hp only with a remap.
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Does any of you guys actually read the posts?

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Stock injection, big IC, bigger turbo, stock clutch - SACHS
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Does any of you guys actually read the posts?
Yeah but a lot of his claims have contradictions. Since when Sachs is a stock clutch?... Why a bigger turbo for power that can be achieved with the stock one... Anyways I was referring to Artemis's post.
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You cant achieve 250BHP on a 2.4JTD 20V with only a remap. At least not in a safe way... you need a bigger turbo to do that.

Stock clutch or not... it makes no difference on performance.
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Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
You cant achieve 250BHP on a 2.4JTD 20V with only a remap. At least not in a safe way... you need a bigger turbo to do that.

Stock clutch or not... it makes no difference on performance.
You didn't read my posts carefully.
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Originally Posted by John_Connor View Post
He can easily gain 220hp only with a remap.
I can back that up with a dyno graph

The clutch is part of the performance process. Be sure that his stock clutch will start slipping at some point. Even if not slipping, if his clutch is not strong enough his torque and power curve will be spikey. I can also prove that with a dyno graph.

Last edited by John_Connor; 28-04-12 at 23:06.
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But we are talking about a car which has 250BHP, not 220. Right?

You said this:

Quote:
Why a bigger turbo for power that can be achieved with the stock one...
So, how do you expect to make 250BHP with stock turbo?

And the clutch... it can be stock, it just depends how much torque you want on your car. You can have 250BHP with only 450Nm torque. And your stock clutch will be just fine, without any slipping...
It all depends on how the mapping is done.
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Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
But we are talking about a car which has 250BHP, not 220. Right?

You said this:



So, how do you expect to make 250BHP with stock turbo?

And the clutch... it can be stock, it just depends how much torque you want on your car. You can have 250BHP with only 450Nm torque. And your stock clutch will be just fine, without any slipping...
It all depends on how the mapping is done.
I said 240-250bhp. Some dyno's measure with differences +/- 10hp. They don't really show always the same results. Some are more optimistic.

220hp mjet engine completely stock with 1500 rail pressure and 1.5 boost. ( GT2256v's can take up to 1.7 ). Do you really think 20 more hp would be a problem let's say with an FMIC and a full exhaust system + more fuel and boost?

Why on earth would you limit torque? ( The only sane reason to limit it is in low rpm to avoid gearbox and clutch stress, but not later on) That's what makes a diesel go fast... I believe you've heard the expression "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"
Imagine If I was to limit the 430NM on my 3527 pound car I'd be no different than this 309NM Kappa: Alfa Romeo 166 2.4 JTD vs Lancia Kappa 2.0 20v turbo - YouTube
So I say strong clutch makes huge difference on performance.

P.S. You cannot limit torque according your desires. There's a bottom line in which you can limit torque and even then your clutch could still be not good enough.

Last edited by John_Connor; 29-04-12 at 12:26.
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Well guys, I think, that the real peak torque measured on the wheel wouldl be about 500N.m. Normally It should be about 500N.m in 2000 rpm with 87mm3, but inner torque is included, so it could be about 420N.m I guess. I use 100mm3 - so I think I can have 500N.m on the wheel. Clutch is SACHS, but without upgread. It´s standart clutch-kit for this car. DMF seems to be OK.
With stock Garrett 2256 you can gain 200-210HP. With more, than 20lb/min - it´s not safe.
The other thing is bad spool of garrett. BV50 spools much better. It makes 2700mBar in 1900rpm. This car should have GTB, but actually it has BV50. GTB will be mount in a few days. BV 50 has a big problem to achieve desired pressure in high revs.
When GTB will be fitted, I will adjust IQ gradually to 110mm3 over 3000rpm. My friend (his car) wants to gain 260HP in 4300rpm. He uses it for sprint for 1/4mile.
On september we will make dyno tests.
For yan-ko: If you want, you will be welcome again
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Looking quite nice those figures in the log.
Very wide powerband I guess.
But dyno'ing it is the only way to find out how much power it has exactly. I'd say 220 hp at the least.

This is what Allerd managed with his 156 2.4 20v, with modded GT2256v turbo at 1,7 bar boost:




So 230 hp/472 Nm (green line) and with water/ethanol injection an additional 15 hp/45 Nm.

I'm not sure how much IQ this is with.

147 JTDm 16v - GTB2060v - 329 hp/578 Nm
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So what I'm seeing is 246hp with a 1.7 boost on a gt2256v + water/methanol injection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Connor View Post
I said 240-250bhp. Some dyno's measure with differences +/- 10hp. They don't really show always the same results. Some are more optimistic.

220hp mjet engine completely stock with 1500 rail pressure and 1.5 boost. ( GT2256v's can take up to 1.7 ). Do you really think 20 more hp would be a problem let's say with an FMIC and a full exhaust system + more fuel and boost?

Why on earth would you limit torque? ( The only sane reason to limit it is in low rpm to avoid gearbox and clutch stress, but not later on) That's what makes a diesel go fast... I believe you've heard the expression "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"
Imagine If I was to limit the 430NM on my 3527 pound car I'd be no different than this 309NM Kappa: Alfa Romeo 166 2.4 JTD vs Lancia Kappa 2.0 20v turbo - YouTube
So I say strong clutch makes huge difference on performance.

P.S. You cannot limit torque according your desires. There's a bottom line in which you can limit torque and even then your clutch could still be not good enough.
We are not talking about how optimistic are some dynos... i'm not interested in fake horsepower numbers.
250BHP means real 250BHP, not actually 220 or 230 but measured on a optimistic dyno.
As you can see from JS JTDs post, 230BHP can be done, with 1.7 bar boost (not stock turbo).
If you want to keep everything reasonable and smoke free you can forget 250BHP without upgrading turbo.

You limit torque to preserve clutch, flywheel and gearbox. Yes more torque means faster car, but if you increase the power by 40% this does not mean that you need to increase the torque by 40%. You can make a "linear" torque curve. Same torque from 2000-4500rpm.

And you are wrong about limiting torque. You can do anything you can desire with torque.
You can have [email protected] and [email protected] if you wish, there is no limitations or "bottomline"...
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So what I'm seeing is 246hp with a 1.7 boost on a gt2256v + water/methanol injection
This is not 2256, but a hybrid turbo...
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We are not talking about how optimistic are some dynos... i'm not interested in fake horsepower numbers.
250BHP means real 250BHP, not actually 220 or 230 but measured on a optimistic dyno.
As you can see from JS JTDs post, 230BHP can be done, with 1.7 bar boost (not stock turbo).
If you want to keep everything reasonable and smoke free you can forget 250BHP without upgrading turbo.

You limit torque to preserve clutch, flywheel and gearbox. Yes more torque means faster car, but if you increase the power by 40% this does not mean that you need to increase the torque by 40%. You can make a "linear" torque curve. Same torque from 2000-4500rpm.

And you are wrong about limiting torque. You can do anything you can desire with torque.
You can have [email protected] and [email protected] if you wish, there is no limitations or "bottomline"...
I don't think you'll find a dyno that will always measure the same power as the previous one did. I'm sorry but I just red that the turbo is a gt2256v?

Define reasonable? Sometimes smoke is something you'll have to get along with if you wish to achieve maximum power.
"linear" torque curve... Like I said by limiting torque in lower RPM, not afterwards. Right? But not limiting it all the way.
Also by looking at the dyno graph from what I see is that the power curve starts to go down at 4200rpm....... I am 10V engine and my power curve goes all the way up to 4800.
I believe someone here said that maximum power with a gt2256v with cf2 injectors on my engine would be 190-200hp? I achieved 210hp anyway.
So I guess it depends who is working on your software and 240hp is achievable with a gt2256v.
I dont feel like arguing. I'll start experimenting some time soon with my gt22 and If I get 230hp out of a 10v cf2 engine I think this discussion will be clear.

P.S. There is a user on this board ( Dagi )from my country which is driving an alfa GT 1.9JTDm with a gt2256v. Power is 230hp at 1.7 boost.
If he wishes and reads this, he could shed some light on your doubts.

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From the graph that JS JTD posted you can see that you can get up to 230BHP with "modded 2256 turbo" (I dont know if word modded means something to you or not), also if I remember correctly that car has FMIC and some mods on exhaust side. And JS JTD is coming from a country which is known for reasonable dynos, so we can believe that the numbers are not "blown up". And no smoke. Where we live smoke means problems with authorities.

From my experience, in 156 you cant get much higher than 210-215BHP without boost creep and smoke on stock car. 166 is a bit better in that regard, because stock intercooler is better, you can gain a few horses more.
Then you can choose to raise the boost up to 1.7 bar on a stock turbo, but that mostly increases intake temperatures and does almost nothing for the power. Also reliability of the turbo at that pressure is at question on a 5cylinder. I believe that you can easily run 1.7 bar on a 4 cylinder. But airflow is much lower on a 4 cyl. You would need 35lb/min of airflow on a 5 cyl, and that would put the turbo way above 190.000 rpm which is considered as a safe limit by Garrett.

Now back to the car from the first post. You can see that sarkan uses boost over 1.8 bar. He choose bigger turbo so he can do 250BHP without any reliability issues or smoke. And if he had a better clutch and flywheel he could squeeze out even more torque in the 2500-3500rpm area.
If you take OEM transmission components into consideration then power figures claimed by sarkan are reasonable and easy to believe.

P.S.: It is hard to believe that 1.9 JTDm with 1.7boost can do 230bhp. Maybe if you can tolerate a lot of smoke. Or maybe if you have an optimistic dyno. But not where JS JTD lives
Imagine, 1.5bar boost on a 1.9JTDm can get you very close to 200BHP with good intercooler and exhaust mods, and then if you increase boost by 0.2bar, you would gain less than 10% additional airflow. So since when 200BHP+10% gives you 230BHP?
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The 156 I mentioned has indeed quite some mods like a fmic, exhaust and increased intake manifold.
He has a modded GT2256v turbo, not a hybrid, but reworked turbine and compressor side to improve flow.
These power figures are measured at a quite conservative dyno, so no bull**** numbers.
I believe his GT2256 is running quite at the max at 230 hp, so I agree with Tribesman 250 hp (w/o ethanol) would be too much. But for sure there are lots of dynoes around the globe that will show 250+ with this setup. That's why high dyno numbers do not always impress me, good datalogs are much more valuable to compare performances.

@Sarkan: BV50 may be a bit better in spool than a GT2256, because a BV50 is morelikely a GT2054 in Garrett terms. IMO the weak spot of a BV50 is the VNT cartridge that is very small, thus restrictive.
GTB would be much better in both spool and top end, but I am sure yan.ko has told you his experiences about this already.
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There is GTB2056V in that (Radek's?) car AFAIK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yan.ko View Post
There is GTB2056V in that (Radek's?) car AFAIK
I recommende him (yes - Radek´s car) to install GTB, but he left his car in rpair-shop to mount gtb, and instead of GTB, BV50 was installed. That´s the way, why I didn´t adjust IQ to 110 or more. I hope GTB will be mount in few days.
To the performance - I saw one graph here in forum. It was from Brera 2.4 154kW. 110mm3 and 1,75Bar at the end. It made about 270BHP. Maybe very optimistic dyno.
So ok, I´ll be glad to get 240HP with GTB - 1,8 Bar and 110mm3 in 4200 rpm.
Thanks for comments.
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Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
From the graph that JS JTD posted you can see that you can get up to 230BHP with "modded 2256 turbo" (I dont know if word modded means something to you or not), also if I remember correctly that car has FMIC and some mods on exhaust side. And JS JTD is coming from a country which is known for reasonable dynos, so we can believe that the numbers are not "blown up". And no smoke. Where we live smoke means problems with authorities.

From my experience, in 156 you cant get much higher than 210-215BHP without boost creep and smoke on stock car. 166 is a bit better in that regard, because stock intercooler is better, you can gain a few horses more.
Then you can choose to raise the boost up to 1.7 bar on a stock turbo, but that mostly increases intake temperatures and does almost nothing for the power. Also reliability of the turbo at that pressure is at question on a 5cylinder. I believe that you can easily run 1.7 bar on a 4 cylinder. But airflow is much lower on a 4 cyl. You would need 35lb/min of airflow on a 5 cyl, and that would put the turbo way above 190.000 rpm which is considered as a safe limit by Garrett.

Now back to the car from the first post. You can see that sarkan uses boost over 1.8 bar. He choose bigger turbo so he can do 250BHP without any reliability issues or smoke. And if he had a better clutch and flywheel he could squeeze out even more torque in the 2500-3500rpm area.
If you take OEM transmission components into consideration then power figures claimed by sarkan are reasonable and easy to believe.

P.S.: It is hard to believe that 1.9 JTDm with 1.7boost can do 230bhp. Maybe if you can tolerate a lot of smoke. Or maybe if you have an optimistic dyno. But not where JS JTD lives
Imagine, 1.5bar boost on a 1.9JTDm can get you very close to 200BHP with good intercooler and exhaust mods, and then if you increase boost by 0.2bar, you would gain less than 10% additional airflow. So since when 200BHP+10% gives you 230BHP?
Where we live smoke is not a problem at all. It's part of a diesel engine and authoroties can tolelare it. JS JTD keeps mentionining "modded gt2256v" but he doesn't really mention what exactly is 'modded' As wee see it's not a hybrid as he replies. It's clearly a FMIC and and exhaust system from what he just mentioned.
Stock intercooler on a 166 is the louziest intercooler in the world. Smoking like hell... You definately need an FMIC on this one.
As for 1.7 boost on a 5 cylinder .. We will see that on dyno. There is one at my disposal, we'll see everything on PAPER, without any useless discussions.
I understand it's hard for you to believe for a 1.9 JTDM getting 230hp with a gt2256v... Here's the original thread. USe google translate "bulgarian to english"
Club Alfa Romeo Bulgaria - View Single Post - Alfa romeo Gt 1.9 jtd 150+

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p.a. Dyno stand is a tuning instrument. Before and After effect. This is why you won't get the same results everywhere.

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Quote:
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JS JTD keeps mentionining "modded gt2256v" but he doesn't really mention what exactly is 'modded' As wee see it's not a hybrid as he replies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JS JTD
He has a modded GT2256v turbo, not a hybrid, but reworked turbine and compressor side to improve flow.
That's all I know. The guy that did the mods does not provide more detail which is understandable from his point of view.

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p.a. Dyno stand is a tuning instrument. Before and After effect. This is why you won't get the same results everywhere.
True, so tell me, then why are you having that much discussion about possible power figures? If comparing different dynoes around the globe doesn't make sense ?
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True, so tell me, then why are you having that much discussion about possible power figures? If comparing different dynoes around the globe doesn't make sense ?
Because results are close to one another, but not exactly the same. This is why I reassure myself when mentioning 240-250hp. Such as my case. I was expecting a maximum of 200hp at it's best. But still I got 10hp more than the expected. Call it an optimistic approach.
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Why do you keep arguing about power figures, when it doesn't matter after all. What matter is your time - 0-100 km/h, 1/4 mile, 80-120 km/h, 0-200 km/h and so on.
AFAIK your car made 170 hp at the wheels, so nobody knows if it is 210 or 200 or 230 or 190 hp.
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Where we live smoke is not a problem at all. It's part of a diesel engine and authoroties can tolelare it.
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