Ferrari Throttle Intake and BMC - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Old 27-08-11 Thread Starter
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Ferrari Throttle Intake and BMC

Done the Ferrari 360 throttle upgrade with intake pipes and placed BMC filter in the left front wheelarch.
Since mine is still a 2.5 I relocated the coolant tank next to the battery to make room for the intake piping and filter.
Next thing to do is gange the frontpipesthe exhaust and then a new remap!
Also got GTA maf housing plan to stick the 2.5 mafsensor in it,not fitted yet not sure if it will give any benefit, think I will bring it with me when the car gets a new remap on the Dyno to see if there are any gains. Feel free to give any comment!

Tim
some piccies;
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Old 28-08-11
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I'm liking the position of the BMC I may do that to mine that is class Wow some set up and nice looking engine bay much of a difference with the Ferrari intake?
 
Old 28-08-11 Thread Starter
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Yes it reacts a lot better on throttle and looks to give more power up the rev range, going on the dyno will tell!
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Old 29-08-11
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Nice work and I think the straight inlet helps as well.
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Old 29-08-11 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonutters View Post
Nice work and I think the straight inlet helps as well.
We will see when it's been on dyno, I will post the results here.

Cheers,

Tim
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Old 30-08-11
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Looks great and will be good to see what the gains are too

Quick question though, how did you mount the header tank/expansion bottle for the coolant?
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Old 30-08-11
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I like it, I've always thought it would be good to run a straight pipe rather than the corrugated bent pipe we have in the V6.

What are you using on the end of the BMC filter, a cold air intake pipe, a trumpet, or something else?
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Old 30-08-11 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST3V13 View Post
Looks great and will be good to see what the gains are too

Quick question though, how did you mount the header tank/expansion bottle for the coolant?
I made a special bracket that bolts under the coolant tank and then on the battery tray.

As for the BMC intake it is what came with the filter 80mm intake alluminium harmonic hose bolted with a clamp straight on the filter and then down next to the foglite.
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Old 30-08-11
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Hey you stole my idea!
Nice looking engine!

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Old 30-08-11
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Must do this to the 156. Was driving the other day and came home to check the oil my lord the BMC was hot.
 
Old 31-08-11
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What are the benefits of the Bosch TB off a 360 over the stock item? The stock TB on the 156 is the same one used across the entire recent Alfa V6 range, including the 3.2 GTA (according to EPER at least), and a few quick sums will tell you that the size of the TB itself is not restrictive until you reach at least 500bhp.

I must be missing something here, because unless there is more to the mod than just swapping the TB...I don't think you'll see any more power. I'm not even convinced the air filter is going to add anything worth measuring either TBH. A decent clean OEM filter is usually plenty good enough, and they usually have the wit to make sure they suck cold air from somewhere with a bit of positive pressure.

Happy to be proven wrong by the RR results...but I'd want to see figures from before and after mods, one mod at a time, same car, same conditions, same dyno, before I'd be convinced.

It's way too easy to convince yourself a mod has improved the car when it's just lightened your wallet - I've done it myself in the past, so please don't think I'm just having a pop - I'm not.

Cheers
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Old 31-08-11
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With the larger tb, Maf closer to the tb and smoother pipes he should see a bit of a improvement even if it is only the response that improve.

We found that 3.0 runners made a nice improvement on the 2.5 for instance.
On a 2.5 I will only change the runners and the inlet pipe I agree that the tb shouldn’t really improve the power a lot on a 2.5.
3.0 and 3.2 definitely need larger plenums and maybe a bigger tb if you have one lying around.
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Old 31-08-11
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I was just going to ask why go for Ferrari 360 TB. But I see on many 3.7/8 conversions this is the norm? Is this due to what TurboNutters just eluded to, that the 3.0 and 3.2-7/8 needs bigger plenum?
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Old 31-08-11
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That is one thing the other is that they are plug and play on the Alfa
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Out of interest, what's the bore on the 360 TB? The stock Alfa one is 70mm.
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Old 31-08-11
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Stock alfa is 67mm, modena is bigger, i have it from maserati 4200 and it's 84mm. You have to know that alfa plenum desing is very bad. It looks nice and that's it. On 2.5 engine it's not so noticeable, but on 3.0 and 3.2 it is! Plenum on NA engine needs to be sam or bigger in displacement as the enigne. On alfa plenum is 2.4l so hardly enough for 2.5 engine. And small tb menas that engine doesnt get enough air in high rpm. That's why alfa v6 are so thirsty and dont have enough top end power. On 3.0 a good plenum and bigger tb gives over 20bhp, couple that with freeflow exhaust and remap and you have 3.0 engine with over 250bhp.

I now what i'm talking and you can look at threads v6 plenum design or in my car thread.
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Old 31-08-11
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Yes you know and have played with it a lot.
Are you sure of the alfa TB size because I also remember 70 mm
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Old 31-08-11 Thread Starter
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Alfa throttle is 72mm, Ferrari 360 is 76mm So its not that bigger then standard, the way I was thinking in the near future there will be an upgrade to 3.0/3.2 then i have already the bigger throttle etc, next thing to do will be the exhaust, equal lenght frontpipes 200 cpi cat with damper. I will start work on the exhaust coming weeks.
3.0/3.2 runners are already on and its been on dyno aswell, it made 220 HP on the crank. It's just a sort of case study to see what will work and what not. It dous feel more torqier already,pics up better after gear change so we will see.
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Old 31-08-11
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Quote:
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Alfa throttle is 72mm, Ferrari 360 is 76mm So its not that bigger then standard
A 76mm diameter throttle body has 11.4% larger aperture than a 72mm diameter throttle body, which is a fair amount more.
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Old 01-09-11 Thread Starter
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A 76mm diameter throttle body has 11.4% larger aperture than a 72mm diameter throttle body, which is a fair amount more.
But not 84mm!!!
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Old 01-09-11
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Jenvey have some data that's worth a look. During some tests they ran a 26mm restrictor on an engine and got 200bhp out of it. 70mm is over 7 times that area.....so it really isn't a restriction.

Recently saw a box-stock 3.2 produce 280bhp using a 24V 164 TB (the ECU used was configured A l pha/N and wasn't drive by wire compatible). Apart from using the 164 TB and a different exhaust, the engine was totally stock.

I've often seen comments about the plenum design on many of the Alfa V6 engines being poor, and good results from making it bigger - don't dispute that at all....but again, I really don't get that the stock TB is a restriction until you get to some really serious power figures.

Until I see a test result that shows more power where the only change was to a bigger TB...I'm simply not convinced.

Re the stock TB, I wasn't careful when measuring, just done it again on a 0 280 750 014 unit, and agreed, it looks more like 67mm for the machined bore. At that, a stock TB is 3525mm2, a 76mm TB gives 4536mm2 so an increase of 28% over stock area. Certainly significant...but is it needed?

Don't let me stop you tinkering though! (like I could).

Last edited by ChrisS; 01-09-11 at 09:20. Reason: Huh? swear filter won't let me type a l p h a
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Old 01-09-11
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That 3,2 engine that produces 280bhp, i'm sure with bigger tb it would go up and car would pull better in high revs.

An yes stock plenum is a bad design, because air isn't evenly distributed to all cilinders, so some run almost lean and another too rich.
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Old 01-09-11 Thread Starter
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To ChrisS; I agree with you that the best thing to do is run the car on the dyno then put the bigger throttle on and run it again. But I haven't got a dyno myself (as for a lot of people) and runs on the dyno dont come cheap.
We will see what happens when its on and I will post the results here with or without improvement.
I'm just trying things and see if it will make any difference.
Lucky you cant stop People from thinking (it would be a boring world then)

No I'm going to Jenvey site
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Old 01-09-11
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I'm wondering if this would work on a TS?
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Old 02-09-11
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@tim0172

Indeed..and there's the rub. Not having easy/cheap access to proper testing facilities means we often end up just doing things because someone else said they should work...without real proof it's going to work on your setup, or because it seems to make sense, or both. As I said before, I know all about that!! I've spent a bloody fortune on my supercharged V6 to make not much of an improvement. Given the costs and effort, it verges on the pathetic really, and I'm not happy to say that, but I'm willing to confess it.

Last time I was at the rollers I ended up swapping cams to do a back to back test. Good job too, because I could have fooled myself into thinking it was better on the one set when in reality, it was over 30bhp down. Thankfully, I have a good relationship with the owners but I'm guessing doing that would normally be very expensive in RR time or they would just say go away and come back when you've done your mods. One test I did do as well....just in case...was to do a power run with and without the air filter & pipework connected. Didn't make any difference whatsoever...which clearly indicated that the filter and ducts were in no way restricitve. This is the sort of test you ideally want to do on the TB.

The place I use normally charge 300 for a half day, and you can do what you like in that time. I'd think taking along a box of parts that you can quickly swap over like TBs, filters etc would be worthwhile...just so you know for sure. Plus, you'd get to see a proper power/torque curve so you can see if you end up making a gain in one place but a loss elsewhere - that happens a lot.

But, all that said, enjoy the tinkering, and here's hoping for a good result.


@samson1990

How big is the stock TB on the TS?? Unless it's smaller than 40mm then I'd not bother personally (back to the Jenvey data, 200bhp on a 26mm restrictor)...but I seem to be in a minority here

There's more than just absolute flow to consider as well - a bigger TB is going to have a bigger change of flow for small throttle changes, particularly when it's nearly shut, so per degree shift of the butterfly will have more effect on the bigger TB, so it'll feel more responsive most likely - that's great if that's what you want, but it might also make it more awkward to drive under certain conditions. Despite what we might think at times, they don't just throw these things together! Having been dicking about with aftermarket ECUs on some of my cars for far too long, getting the driveability right is the hard part. Best power is simple given a RR and an operator who has a clue. Making it nice to drive on partial throttle settings is a very different problem.



I'll get me coat......
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