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(Post Link) post #1 of 140 Old 20-07-11 Thread Starter
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Carbon Plenum for Alfa Romeo v6

Hi all,

finally i have finished the new tool for my carbon plenum and started to produce. With the new tool i am now flexible to produce the plenum with 74 or 84mm inner diameter.
With the 84mm it is possible to use TBs from Maserati GT or Ferrari F430. The 74mm was initially planed for 360 Modena TB which i tested at the beginning.
I have been using for about two months Maserati GT TB with 84mm diameter without any problems, it was just plug and play.
With the bigger TB i have also replaced the airflow meter cover from Mercedes AMG 6,3 which has also 84mm diameter. So far, I had no chance to check on dyno the difference between 74 and 84mm TBs but it is not much i would say with my car.
The crucial test was last April in Spa Francorcams on the race track. Ron Sanen, a Belgium race driver tested it there and he is using it since then for racing in Alfa Romeo Challenge. He did second in Zolder and won last race in Le Mans. Next race is this weekend in Spa Francorcamps, i am going to be there actually
I Have uploaded some videos : ‪Il canale di GTAevoluzione‬‏ - YouTube
Currently I have two pieces with 84mm diameter finished. If some one is interested please let me know. The price is 929 incl. 19% vat. It does not include the TB.
I bought them used for testing in internet.
Regards
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Does the plenum have bellmouths on the inside, going to the intake runners ?

PS. Would you know where I can get the fonts for that "156" logo on the GTA in the video ?
 
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Discussing similar stuff here:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...y-project.html

I like your plenum as well and I have F430 TB on my desk, but honestly the price is about double for what I would be interested in it. I don't say its overpriced. Hard to judge this. I can imagine how much time and work did development and testing cost but just now its too much for me considering some other projects I am starting


BTW the F360 TB I am using now on regrind OEM plenum is 76mm internal diameter, not 74mm.

147GTA,Grigio Metallico,Imola leather,3.75l conversion,ported heads,F575 TB,Carbon plenum,Stainless manifolds,EQ pipes,Supersprint silenced cat back,18" GT multispokes,KW V3,Galfer 6pot 355mm,Brembo sport rear

147 1.6TS, Nerro,Beige Interior,Galfer Extreme Brake kit,2,0TS intake manifold,Custom ex. manifold,200CPI cat,Supersprint silenced center + OO backbox,GTA spoiler,GTA side skirts,GTA headlights,Blaupunkt LA MP74 + Focal + MacAudio + Dynamat + HERZ subwoofer

Last edited by gotcha; 21-07-11 at 15:15.
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Wow, good to hear its finally finished!
Too pricey for me tough, im a cheap guy
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I am not crazy about the shape, somehow it does not seem at all proper, but the looks are amazing.

PS. Having a stock map but an increased MAF housing, without the appropriate MAF sensor, will screw up fueling badly.
 
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Wow, that looks fantastic! Could it be cheaper to produce in ally?
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selcuk, can you remind me the result in power gain with the carbon plenum and the 74mm TB with OEM MAF ? Did you put K&N filter inside the airbox ?

thanks for all
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandrus View Post
I am not crazy about the shape, somehow it does not seem at all proper, but the looks are amazing.
Well, I have doubts about the port closest the the TB, Cylinder 3, rear bank. There is 90deg angle for the air to get from tb opening to it and its sitting just in a sharp just corner by the wall. I would be expecting this cylinder to run rich.

Even though the OEM plenum doesn't look like that from the outside, there is actually quite a smooth pass from TB to the first port and not such a sharp corner. Also the ports by OEM are grind in an progressively opening shape of simple bellmouths.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...0%20TB/014.jpg

But the plenum looks amazing. I would just not continue after the TB with a cylindrical section but with conical section so that its cross section would be widening from TB. Because now its a tube leading from TB to a box. The pass from TB to the box could be smoother.

@selcuk - its not critics, just my comment to the design. Its a great job you did and I am sure it still works much better than OEM. I just think it could be still tweaked a bit
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(Post Link) post #9 of 140 Old 21-07-11 Thread Starter
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Hi,

thanx for the comments
It is difficult to produce, this is the reason for the prize. It is not just laminated on a form. It is produced under high pressure and 150c degrees in an oven for carbon lamniates. It takes couple days to produce.
I used at the beginning an aluminum plenum with Modena TB, you can see on the dyno result power increase was about +17HP and 25NM. Standard car was 243HP. With the carbon plenum the car feels more powerfull, i will try to go on the dyno next week and show the result.
I have installed the OTA box from BMC.
The fonts and plenum are my design ;-)
I am not using intake runners
Regards
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Thanks for informations !
This gain is really good, is is only due to big plenum + TB 74mm ? No other mod between the 2 RR tests ?
So I guess you still have the OEM Maf during this test ?

Sorry for all theses questions but I think they would interest some other people here.
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I do not understand how the engine power can be increased without the height of the cams are changed.

you can put the biggest intake manifold of the world but as the profile of the cams do not give a longer open time it is useless.

it's like 150 people wanted to go through a door when the door can not pass up that 100!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv 3lturbo View Post


I do not understand how the engine power can be increased without the height of the cams are changed.

you can put the biggest intake manifold of the world but as the profile of the cams do not give a longer open time it is useless.

it's like 150 people wanted to go through a door when the door can not pass up that 100!
In another thread we discussed this issue, and from the test that myself and Jaxx-GTA have done, the plenum can affect performance.

I won't go into to much detail as this is selcuk's thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv 3lturbo View Post


I do not understand how the engine power can be increased without the height of the cams are changed.

you can put the biggest intake manifold of the world but as the profile of the cams do not give a longer open time it is useless.

it's like 150 people wanted to go through a door when the door can not pass up that 100!

If you tackle the prevailing pressure in the intake manifold while driving with an open throttle full up, you'll see that it is lower than at this moment the prevailing atmospheric pressure (approximately -0.20 bar relative to atmospheric), improving the flow of the intake manifold to get to the bar -0.05 atmospheric pressure and this with the standard cams will improve cylinder filling.

In the meantime I'll try to find a log of driving and I'll show you exactly what I mean.

Last edited by GrzesiekK.; 23-07-11 at 15:23.
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Quote:
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In the meantime he'll try to find a log of driving and I'll show you exactly what I mean.
ok
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(Post Link) post #15 of 140 Old 25-07-11 Thread Starter
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Hi,

the dyno result is comparing only the standard engine versus replacement of the plenum with Modena TB.
I changed the MAF after i have upgraded to f430 TB. The inner diameter of the MAF and TB are the same now.
The first plenum i used to check the difference was an aluminum welded piece just to see if it would make a difference. Throttle response is much better with the carbon plenum. The aluminum one was just like a box. With the first prototype we built we noticed that the plenum was not stable enough. First by pushing the accelerator up to 2000- 4000rpm the plenum collapsed in the middle of the biggest surface area which shows an underpressure inside the plenum. after going +4500rpm it expanded in the same area wich showed there was a highpressure inside of the plenum. It was verry difficult to find a solution to prevent this problem. The plenum is so strong that it does not move when i step on it.
After the track test in Spa, Ron said that he reached first time the limiter at the end of the straight (Les Combes)in 5th gear. Before that he was using the original plenum with 76mm TB.
I think if you change the cams and valves you will have more benefit of the bigger plenum. The Alfa plenum has got about 1,7L volume and my design ~4,5L volume.
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Alfa plenum is 2.5L is it not?
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Yes I also measured 2.5L but I can not remember if it was with or without the runners.
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In the video i cleraly see the plenum pulsates, how about that ? Is that good/bad/neutral ?
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I seen that too, didn't think that was a good sign, but I maybe wrong. Looks ace though
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Hi,

Don't most people use independent throttle bodies, why muck about with a plenum on a race car?

Cheers

Sean

Last edited by GhostyDog; 14-08-11 at 11:33.
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Quote:
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hi,

don't most people use independent throttle bodies, why muck about with a plenum on a race car?

Cheers

sean
+1000000000000000000
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Unless there's regulations not permitting the use of ITBs I'd have to agree with the last posts.
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Quote:
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Hi,

Don't most people use independent throttle bodies, why muck about with a plenum on a race car?

Cheers

Sean
The electrics to make that possible on a 147 GTA for road use would be a nightmare, and a very expensive one too. At least with a modified plenum and single big throttlebody you can keep the original ECU which is paired to the bodycomputer and controls all other dashboard, alarm, locking functions etc. On a race car with a stripped interior and aftermarket ECU it wouldn't matter much either way, but if you need to keep a car road legal then the big plenum & big single throttlebody is going to cost a fraction of the amount of ITBs.

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Dan, I think he's on about the race car it was tested on in the video
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(Post Link) post #25 of 140 Old 15-08-11 Thread Starter
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Hi,

the plenum is absolutelly stable, Ron has used it on all races this year. He won Le mans, next race is in Zandvoort 17-18 September, I am going to be there. The biggest noticeable difference to the standard plenum is that the car goes much better at high speed, you feel there is much less resistance to the engine when you push the throttle. The problem with the standard plenum is that it can not provide enough air at high speed. I will check this week the engine power through the OBD interface and present it here. If i can find the time i would like to put the standard components to check the difference with OBD interface.
By the way, Ferrari does the same kind of tuning to their GTOs and FXX versions, they have all modified plenums. I am planing to place an order for 10 plenums for 833 each. The two pieces i had are reserved. If someone is interested please let me know.
Regards
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File Type: jpg 74mm.jpg (187.5 KB, 193 views)
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File Type: jpg 84 mm.jpg (47.1 KB, 173 views)
File Type: jpg f430 84mm.jpg (161.3 KB, 168 views)
File Type: jpg 84 mm f430.jpg (129.7 KB, 168 views)
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