1.9 8v JTD nozzles - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 67 Old 18-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

1.9 8v JTD nozzles

Hi all,

I have joined the forum as although i dont own an Alfa i am tuning a similar style of engine which is the 2.0l HDI.

The reason i am interested in the 8v nozzles is that the injectors sit centrally in the piston bowl and also are on an angle to clear the camshaft.

I am hoping that you guys might be able to help, Which nozzles do you guys use for performance, orifice size and hole amount being important factors? Info out there is very scarce so anything will be much appreciated as the common upgrade is far from ideal

Thanks in advance, Peter.
Uberderv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
we use alfa nozzles or complete injectors so far...

ste standard (early) 8v injectors are good upto about 160 bhp (CF2), later ones can do about 200 bhp (CF3)... that's for 4 of course
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 67 Old 18-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Its a similar story with the Hdi nozzles, 200 is about the maximum but injection duration is long at this point so getting the fuel in quicker is the key.

I have had quotes of american companys to modify them but once the tax etc is added on it becomes quite expensive.

There would be plenty of options if only the injectors where straight in the head.
Uberderv is offline  
Status: no pain, no gain
AO Silver Member
 
yan.ko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Czech Republic
County: Moravskoslezský
Posts: 1,951
Garage
What's the injection duration on HDI? Below one is from my latest 1.9 8V JTD. Values upto 70mm3/i are stock, 70+ ones are logicaly extended by myself ...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg inj.duration.jpg (77.3 KB, 177 views)
yan.ko is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 67 Old 18-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Here is a screen shot of standard injection duration but it looks like the axis definitions are different to yours yan.ko, can you tell me what the time is measured in?


Last edited by Uberderv; 18-06-11 at 21:29.
Uberderv is offline  
Status: no pain, no gain
AO Silver Member
 
yan.ko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Czech Republic
County: Moravskoslezský
Posts: 1,951
Garage
Axis should be the same - iq [mm^3/i] vs rail pressure [bar]. Z-values are injector opening time in microseconds [us].

Might be, that PSA uses mg/i instead of mm^3.
yan.ko is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
In any case... injectors look to be much "smaller" than Alfas...
TribesMan is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 67 Old 19-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Yan.ko can you tell me the DSLA for those nozzles please? Injector bodies also influence flow but how much i am unsure
Uberderv is offline  
vsd
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 44
Hi, check this thread https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...injectors.html
it could be helpful for you.
I am pretty sure that your axis definitions for duration map aren't correct. Try with the definitions that yan.ko wrote and you'll see that they make more sense.
It seem that these HDI nozzles flow less than 105 hp JTS nozzles. This is the duration map from 90hp HDI, right?
CF3 nozzles fitted on the 1,9 8v jtd 115 hp engine are DSLA144P1295 Bosch 0 445 110 119
CF2 nozzles fitted on 1,9 jtd 8v 105 hp are DSLA145P763 Bosch 0 433 175 175

Last edited by vsd; 19-06-11 at 05:31.
vsd is offline  
(Post Link) post #10 of 67 Old 19-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Thanks for the info vsd, the link you posted is what brought me to the forum

I suppose my next step is to get hold of a DSLA144P1295 nozzle and see if it will work on the HDI head by building a little test rig. If my research has been correct then the angle that the injector sits in the jtd/Hdi should be very similar.

The spray angle is 2 degrees out but i think that is acceptable, i also think that if the advance maps are adjusted it could bring perfect results
Uberderv is offline  
vsd
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 44
What's the model number of your nozzles and injectors. If you are in Europe, I think that the cheapest but still good nozzles you can buy, are Firad. I bought my nozzles directly from them.
vsd is offline  
(Post Link) post #12 of 67 Old 21-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Hi,

This is the number off the injectors on the engine i am building- 0445 110 044 with the nozzle DSLA142P795. There is also a nozzle which slightly better flow that ends in 988+ but i dont think they come close to your Alfa nozzles.

My plan is to buy a set of the injectors which end in 119 for testing then see how i go from there

Yes i am in the UK so should be able to get a good deal if i go for Firad
Uberderv is offline  
(Post Link) post #13 of 67 Old 22-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Here is the duration map for the 2.0L HDI with the correct axis-

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-v...252520axis.jpg

Last edited by Uberderv; 22-06-11 at 13:45.
Uberderv is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 67 Old 23-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Now this is confusing, i got hold of an injector ending in 119. When i whipped the nozzle off it has the number-

DSLA144P973+ it appears to have 6 holes, is this just an earlier nozzle?

Cheers

Last edited by Uberderv; 23-06-11 at 22:01.
Uberderv is offline  
vsd
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 44
DSLA144P1295 indeed has 6 holes, if I remember it right. I am wandering why the nozzle has different number, maybe it has been changed before. I also don't think that original bosh numbers end with +.
It seems that DSLA144P973 is fitted on injector 0 433 175 274, which is fitted on 2,4 JTD 20v 175 hp.
There are some chinese manufacturers who make the nozzle with + at the end.
Someone to correct me if I am wrong.
vsd is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 67 Old 24-06-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

So i am guessing that the 2.4 jtd nozzle is not an upgrade for you 1.9 jtd guys as i have not seen them mentioned before?

On the Hdi engine the nozzle with 988+ and also the common Mercedes upgrade nozzle (not ideal due to spray angle being too narrow) with + at the end are the highest flowing version available but i cant find any explanation, they all have Bosch etched onto them though.
Uberderv is offline  
Status: no pain, no gain
AO Silver Member
 
yan.ko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Czech Republic
County: Moravskoslezský
Posts: 1,951
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberderv View Post
So i am guessing that the 2.4 jtd nozzle is not an upgrade for you 1.9 jtd guys as i have not seen them mentioned before?
Nope, they are the same - https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...ml#post3662751.
yan.ko is offline  
(Post Link) post #18 of 67 Old 14-07-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Thanks for the info, i have not made any progress with the nozzles yet. Been kind of side tracked with making a higher flowing Cp1 pump than the original R65.
Uberderv is offline  
Status: no pain, no gain
AO Silver Member
 
yan.ko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Czech Republic
County: Moravskoslezský
Posts: 1,951
Garage
I have spare 16V CP1 pump (CR/CP1S3/R55/10-1S, Bosch 0 445 010 071). Same 5.5mm piston dia but higher lift comparing to 8V one I suppose. This one is known to be capable of 1700+bar either @100+mm3/i iq. I'm going to upgrade it in late August probably.
yan.ko is offline  
(Post Link) post #20 of 67 Old 14-07-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

Are you sure its an R55? The common upgrade for the HDI is an R70 from the 3.0l BMW which is apparently good for 1800bar and 200hp+.

Unfortunately i dont have any data on injection quantitys for that power as its still fairly uncommon and my engine is still on the floor in the garage

Just out of interest do you know the sprocket size on the Jtd pump?
Uberderv is offline  
Status: no pain, no gain
AO Silver Member
 
yan.ko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Czech Republic
County: Moravskoslezský
Posts: 1,951
Garage
Yep, there is R55 on the label. Either 8V pump (CR/CP1S3/R55/10-1S - Bosch 0 445 010 007) is capable of almost 1600bar @100mm3/i. AFAIK ~95mm3/i @4000rpm is fine for 200HP on 1.9 JTD.

Big pump could help you to get higher pressure, but pumps much more fuel than needed causing higher power loses on pump and heating fuel more (which is also not useful).
yan.ko is offline  
(Post Link) post #22 of 67 Old 15-07-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

I have some injection duration figures for 150hp with the standard pump, i will have a look later and see what it is
Uberderv is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Spain
County: Barcelona
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by yan.ko View Post
Yep, there is R55 on the label. Either 8V pump (CR/CP1S3/R55/10-1S - Bosch 0 445 010 007) is capable of almost 1600bar @100mm3/i. AFAIK ~95mm3/i @4000rpm is fine for 200HP on 1.9 JTD.

Big pump could help you to get higher pressure, but pumps much more fuel than needed causing higher power loses on pump and heating fuel more (which is also not useful).
Hi! I think my grande punto runs with CR/CP1H3/R80/10-89S,Bosch Part Number:0445010166 (Eper part number 55205935) original runs 1600 bar, capable to 1800 bar? Enought for 230 hp ?
Vic_O_O is offline  
Status: Always looking for more power...
AO Member
 
John_Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 248
Uberderv

I have a friend who owns a 2.2 HDI 136hp Citroen C5. You're actually going down the same road as he did.. But trust me, it wont end well. He replaced his turbocharger with a 2256v or was it a 2260V, not very sure. He's using his stock nozzles because they are good enough for more than 200hp...The problem is in your piston rods. They start breaking around 180hp so If i were you I would look into that matter first. So thing is my friend didnt know that and broke the piston rods and also caused some other damage to the engine. Did you do something about your intake system?
P.S. Isn't your fuel pump running 1600bar stock? I'm pretty sure my friend's 2.2 HDI was...

Last edited by John_Connor; 19-07-11 at 09:25.
John_Connor is offline  
(Post Link) post #25 of 67 Old 19-07-11 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I would rather not say
County: -
Posts: 17

Member car:

Peugeot 205 HDI

i am putting a 2.0 hdi motor into a 1992 peugeot 205. standard pump runs at 1350 bar. if you have a spare 5 mins you could have a look at my progress here- http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?...erv+ii+project
:-)
Uberderv is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
jtd , nozzles

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Q2 will fit to : notfast Tuning & Upgrades 20 11-09-10 20:58
Tuning 1.9 JTD for racing dieselpower Tuning & Upgrades 112 10-03-10 11:40
ds2500 pads for Bendix MikeWhite Tuning & Upgrades 8 01-01-08 10:27
Which one is a good start: the 159 1.9 JTD or the GT 1.9 JTD Q2? gwis96 Introduce Yourself 17 05-08-07 00:18
156 1.9 JTD 150 Mjet power delivery question morty1961 Alfa 147, 156 & GT 1 01-06-06 08:07

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome