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(Post Link) post #151 of 172 Old 06-06-16 Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention that the Gtv I tuned has an A/R 0.86 on the exhaust side, and it has 0.5 bar @ 4000 and full boost @4500, so it sounds a little weird that your 164 spools so lately. Does your GT3071R have a 56.5 mm exhaust wheel or a 60mm?

Do you control boost by Pierburg, with a bleed valve or directly to the actuator?
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Originally Posted by Il Busso View Post
I forgot to mention that the Gtv I tuned has an A/R 0.86 on the exhaust side, and it has 0.5 bar @ 4000 and full boost @4500, so it sounds a little weird that your 164 spools so lately. Does your GT3071R have a 56.5 mm exhaust wheel or a 60mm?

Do you control boost by Pierburg, with a bleed valve or directly to the actuator?
What is your pressure on 4500? I also have 0,5 bar @4000 rpm.
And do you have a ignition advance map and maybe also a AFR-table so we can compare?

My turbine wheel is the 56,5mm trim 84 version

Edit: After a small drive now (I will post a video), I switched on the logging on MS3X and can se that I have 0,9 bar @4500 rpm and 1 bar at about 4800rpm.

Im using a electronic boost control valve from DIYautotune, but it was just as slow with my Hallman MBC ball valve.

Last edited by Alfanatiker; 06-06-16 at 20:04.
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Video of how the car performs. 223 000km ond the ODO. Never rebuild.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f-2...ature=youtu.be
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(Post Link) post #154 of 172 Old 25-06-16 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alfanatiker View Post
Video of how the car performs. 223 000km ond the ODO. Never rebuild.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f-2...ature=youtu.be
Sorry for the delay...your 164 seems to go exactly like the Gtv I tuned with the same turbocharger,
it spools just a little faster in the gear shifting (probably due to the smaller A/R), and it seems quicker for the higher boost pressure, the Gtv runs 1.2 bar from 4500 to the limiter.

Did you map your ignition map by ears or with earphones linked to the knock sensors? It seems to have way more advance than the Gtv, and the AFR table is very very similar.
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Sorry for the delay...your 164 seems to go exactly like the Gtv I tuned with the same turbocharger,
it spools just a little faster in the gear shifting (probably due to the smaller A/R), and it seems quicker for the higher boost pressure, the Gtv runs 1.2 bar from 4500 to the limiter.

Did you map your ignition map by ears or with earphones linked to the knock sensors? It seems to have way more advance than the Gtv, and the AFR table is very very similar.

The ignition advance is first a calculation. And then modified by how I FEEL the car pulls. The engine has not been out from the car to adjust it, an neither has the car been on a rolling road. But I have 9 years of experience with adjusting aftermarket ECUs. (this week Ive been working on my 3,0 12v race engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKAgipkPmxo )

The car is doing 0-160 kph (GPS-speed) in 12,5 seconds on normal cheap street tires. So its quite fast for being an fwd car.
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(Post Link) post #156 of 172 Old 19-08-16 Thread Starter
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Hello,
sorry another time for the delay, i completely missed the update for this thread.

As I said your car seems very fast with this setup, I was not criticizing your advance map, I was asking because it looks very high advance, especially on higher boost. Do you use an 100 octane fuel or the regular?

I saw your new 3.0 12v turbo setup on your 164, it looks very interesting. Can I have some info, like turbocharger, cams, and power target?
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Hello,
sorry another time for the delay, i completely missed the update for this thread.

As I said your car seems very fast with this setup, I was not criticizing your advance map, I was asking because it looks very high advance, especially on higher boost. Do you use an 100 octane fuel or the regular?

I saw your new 3.0 12v turbo setup on your 164, it looks very interesting. Can I have some info, like turbocharger, cams, and power target?
Its a standard 9,5:1 compression 164 engine with forged H-beam rods, QV camshafts and otherwise the same turbo setup as I had in the 2.0 engine but with an Tial V38 external waste gate now. It is the same car, that now is getting a 3,0 engine instead.
And at the same time Ive mounted a Quaife ATB differensial. I dont really have a power target as so, but Im going to run either max 1 bar, or about 1,2-1,3 and at the latter this turbo and engine is able to produce about 470-480 bhp.
A friend has the exact same mechanical engine and same intercooler system, but with other headers and another turbo. His engine gave 557 bhp in the dyno @ 1,6 bar.

Btw Im using 98 octane, which is the highest that is possible to get in Norway. They even removed the E85 last year.
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(Post Link) post #158 of 172 Old 19-08-16 Thread Starter
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So apart from the external wastegate and the camshafts (I had the 180 hp camshafts) , it is exactly the same setup I had on my first 3.0, and I can tell that you can run 1.1-1.2 bar max, and then the backpressure will be too high to go above 360 hp and 55 kgm, even with an 80 mm exhaust.

Your friend's setup is really interesting: which turbocharger is he using to have 560 hp @1.6?

And what about the 2.7 setup I saw on your channel? Is he still running? 522 hp seem very interesting too!

I'm running with a GT3582R A/R 1.06 @ 1.2 bar and I think to have about 420 hp and 60 kgm, but I wanna raise the pressure up to 1.8 to reach 500 hp.

Thanks for your info!
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So apart from the external wastegate and the camshafts (I had the 180 hp camshafts) , it is exactly the same setup I had on my first 3.0, and I can tell that you can run 1.1-1.2 bar max, and then the backpressure will be too high to go above 360 hp and 55 kgm, even with an 80 mm exhaust.

Your friend's setup is really interesting: which turbocharger is he using to have 560 hp @1.6?

And what about the 2.7 setup I saw on your channel? Is he still running? 522 hp seem very interesting too!

I'm running with a GT3582R A/R 1.06 @ 1.2 bar and I think to have about 420 hp and 60 kgm, but I wanna raise the pressure up to 1.8 to reach 500 hp.

Thanks for your info!
You can not compare a internally gated turbo setup with a external gated setup. An external makes the world of difference when talking about back pressure. Thats the hole point of why you need one

the 2,7 was the same engine as his 3,0, but with a 2,0 crank. Turbo used in both setups was a Garrett T04Z and pressure was the same 1,6 bar. He is the owner of the dyno where In had my GTV6 engine and my Bertone engine on my channel. Actually all bench testing in my channel if from this guys dyno (also the Dedra 8v turbo with almost 490 bhp @ 2,2-2,3 bar).

And some other info; Im going for a trackday meeting tomorrow with mye -69 Giulia GT, so a new video of the car will be uploaded after that.
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(Post Link) post #160 of 172 Old 20-08-16 Thread Starter
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Yeah I know how much an external gate can help the backpressure reduction, indeed now I have it on the GT3582R, I just don't know if a 56.5 mm exhaust wheel can cope with a 3.0 exhaust flow.

What fuel pump do you have on the 560hp 3 liters?

By the way could we compare the ignition map of these 3.0 12v turbo?

This is mine:
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Yeah I know how much an external gate can help the backpressure reduction, indeed now I have it on the GT3582R, I just don't know if a 56.5 mm exhaust wheel can cope with a 3.0 exhaust flow.

What fuel pump do you have on the 560hp 3 liters?

By the way could we compare the ignition map of these 3.0 12v turbo?

This is mine:
The engine is not ready, but i do have a ignition map for the 557 bhp engine. On all our in tank pump alfas, we have used the walbro 255 HP pump. Its a bit small on track days on the 557 engine, but on normal roads you really need to behave bad to starve it

This is also with original 9,5:1 pistons. But with E85



How did you define your ignition advance? Is your compression still 9,5:1? The table i put out is measured out in a dyno for optimum performance on that exact engine (advance would never be the same on 2 engines, but approx if all mechanical parts are 100% the same).

Last edited by Alfanatiker; 20-08-16 at 17:35.
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(Post Link) post #162 of 172 Old 22-08-16 Thread Starter
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Quite impressive

My engine is 9:1, we are using the same fuel pump, good to know it has enough flow capacity.

The advance map is still quite conservative for my engine, since the lower cr, the w2a ic;
definied on the road with earphones and regular fuel (in Italy is 95 RON, premium is 98-100).

557 hp with 1.6 bar is an amazing result, since the not exceptional desing of the heads...are you using the stock pistons??

What kind of ignition are you using? I had to switch to the 166 V6 TB coil pack, because of the misfires above 1.2 bar...bench tested this coil, it seems great!
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File Type: jpg 20160320_171134.jpg (155.6 KB, 66 views)
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Quite impressive

My engine is 9:1, we are using the same fuel pump, good to know it has enough flow capacity.

The advance map is still quite conservative for my engine, since the lower cr, the w2a ic;
definied on the road with earphones and regular fuel (in Italy is 95 RON, premium is 98-100).

557 hp with 1.6 bar is an amazing result, since the not exceptional desing of the heads...are you using the stock pistons??

What kind of ignition are you using? I had to switch to the 166 V6 TB coil pack, because of the misfires above 1.2 bar...bench tested this coil, it seems great!
Ignition is the wasted spark coil from 155 v6
Pistons is standard. And as i said the 557 engine is running E85 and not regular 95-98 octane gasoline.
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Hello guys,I just finished tuning my lovely Gtv 2,0 V6 TB into a 3,0 V6 12v TB,and wanted to share my project with you.
Starting from my completely stock 33000 km Gtv,i was not satisfied about its engine (i love its sound,but not its power and performance),so...Instead of tuning the stock engine,i decided to start from a 3,0 12v engine from a '97 164 3,0 12v (motor code 66303).

My target was reaching absolutly reliable 400cv and more than 50 kgm,so i began.
Pistons.
I used CPS pistons designed by me about surface,rings height and position,and valve places (i don't remember the right name...). Bore 93,4mm instead of 93 stock pistons,volume chamber 66cc instead of 58cc,so the compression ratio is 8,5:1. Obviously bored and honed stock liners.

Conrods.
After long sessions on the dyno with another V6 alfa engine, I decided to use sotck conrods,enough for more than 500 cv. Polished and balanced with <0,1gr tolerance by me. New bolts and bearings.

Crankshaft.
The crankshaft had no wear,so i just cleaned the oil ducts, and polished the main journals and rod journals.

Flywheel.
I like hearing sport engines revving up with lightened flywheel,so i decided to do this on my engine,but this is a V6 engine,so i had to re-balance the main pulley-crankshaft-flywheel-clutch assembly,and is it not an easy thing,because you have to balance every piece,individually and then the assembly.

Oil,water pump.
Stock oil and water pump are enough for my project,so i decided not to upgrade them. I only built a new water pump pulley with a smaller diameter. (-5%).

Heads.
The hardest part of the project. I made a flow test on a flow bench,and figured out that intake and exhaust ports are not enough,IMHO,so i machined,polished and put again on the bench to improve head ports,using stock intake valves,and Nimonic 80 uprated exhaust valves,41mm instead of 39,5mm. I made a three angles cut of valve seats,30-45-60 on the intake (1,5mm width contact band),15-4560 on the exhaust (2mm width).

New valve guides on both sides,new oil seals.

Camshaft.
After many hours on the dyno,i realized that 2,0 TB camshafts (Int lift: 7,6mm.Ex lift: 8,5mm.
28-59 65-38, 267 283 duration) were not so good,so i tried to use stock 3,0 12v camshafts (Int lift: 9,1mm. Ex lift: 8,5mm. 32-67 59-33,279 272 duration) were much better. Unlike many turbocharged engines,which need short exhaust duration and overlaps, my V6 engine needs longer exhaust durations,because of long exhaust manifolds that require long exhaust pulse.

Exhaust system.
Stock manifold,U pipes and turbocharger support can provide a good work,if you study and apply the right camshafts. The downpipe is a brand new one,handmade with an 80 inner diameter,the remaining tube is a stainless 76mm,including bends,with two silencers.

To be continued...


P.S.: Tomorrow,with pics...

Bye,Flavio
Flavio, Many thanks for this. I love your structured approach. Quite clearly, your processes have been well thought out and each step changes; and the reasons for them, must have been analyzed to achieve what you wanted. It would be good to know a little more detail about the theoretical processes which led you to make the changes.
A lot of these processes and the reasons for them are are not fully understood by enthusiasts and any information can only increase the understanding of what makes Alfa so special. I Imagine there are not to many engines that could tolerate the such huge changes whilst improving their reliability and greatly increasing their specific power output.
Great work.
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Quote:
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Ignition is the wasted spark coil from 155 v6
Pistons is standard. And as i said the 557 engine is running E85 and not regular 95-98 octane gasoline.
Hi!

What Spark plugs are you using in your turbo engines?

I need to get new spark plugs form my 155 2,5 v6 setup with turbo and E85, it would be nice to have a good reference.
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Flavio, Many thanks for this. I love your structured approach. Quite clearly, your processes have been well thought out and each step changes; and the reasons for them, must have been analyzed to achieve what you wanted. It would be good to know a little more detail about the theoretical processes which led you to make the changes.
A lot of these processes and the reasons for them are are not fully understood by enthusiasts and any information can only increase the understanding of what makes Alfa so special. I Imagine there are not to many engines that could tolerate the such huge changes whilst improving their reliability and greatly increasing their specific power output.
Great work.
Thank you for your appreciations, V6 Alfa is a great engine, it has a great resistance when you tune it.

What would you like to know better about my theories?
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Ignition is the wasted spark coil from 155 v6
Pistons is standard. And as i said the 557 engine is running E85 and not regular 95-98 octane gasoline.
Perfect, thank you!
Just one question: your ignition map is map based? I mean, 250% load is 1.5 bar?

Thank you,

Flavio
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Thank you for your appreciations, V6 Alfa is a great engine, it has a great resistance when you tune it.

What would you like to know better about my theories?
Thanks Flavio for your response. There are a number of areas I am interested in despite "Turbo Cars" not being an area I am familiar with. However I will start with regard to the issue of lightening the flywheel and as a function of that also addressing the issue of the front pulley. The Busso design was revolutionary for its time insofar as balancing was achieved by counter weighting the whole crank from front to back. You referred to the front pulley and by which I think you were implying this too was included in you flywheel modifications. Over the years I have heard of so many people who simply lighten the flywheel or change it for a conventional one, but to my knowledge I have never known anyone expressly state they were looking at the crank as an integral part of the exercise. It may be it was simply an oversight. Perhaps you could explain in a little more detail what areas of the crank overall were "Shaved" - for want of a better word. Clearly the balancing process would potentially enable a higher rev limit and considerably improve the smoothness of the engine across the range. Many years ago, I balanced my Alfetta 2.5 GTV6 as well as fitting C & B cams and the difference was enormous. But although I still have dealings with the company who did the work, I don't recall the crank being touched, only the pistons and con rods.

Secondly, It is fortuitous that you have included in your posts details of ignition timing for your projects. I can understand C & B cams would ostensibly (I think) not make much difference with force induction systems and as indicated somewhere within the posts. However, my particular area of interest is due the the fact have a 3.2 Q4.
Now the ignition timing charts included in this thread illustrate the changing advance needed with "Fixed???" camshaft valve timing when the Busso is Turbo-ed.

My problem is:- There must be a co-relationship between the ignition advance as a function of crank rotation/acceleration and variable valve timing advance/retard. Forced induction removes the need (I presume) for variable valve timing. However variable valve timing is trying to achieve/mimic what force charging a cylinder achieves. Thus to optimize the naturally aspirated charge characteristics, valves must be advanced/retarded to try to optimize the air/mixture flow, into the cylinder. And from that, as the VVT is trying to mimic a breathing characteristic of a turbo-ed (ignoring the over pressurization), the VVT must be optimized to correspond with the ignition advance. This must be substantially true as naturally aspirated engine designers are always trying to achieve the kind of power levels of equivalent "turbo-ed" engines.

To fail to optimize this; as I understand it, would result in a loss of power and by the same token, if the ignition advance, as derived by the ECU, is not set as a function of the VVT advance, the "Anti-knock" devices will be invoked. Apart from believing the 3.2 GM derived Alfa engine has an unbalanced VVT response time as a function of oil flow balance across the block, I am now coming to believe the ignition advance is pre-determined before the cam - shafts have been "Set". In other words, there is a presumption by the ECU that the VVT will be in their correct positions as opposed to only choosing the "Appropriate Ignition Advance" when the cam shafts have indicated they have assumed their correct positions. In doing so the Anti-knock devices would not need to be invoked. This being the case more consideration could be given to improving the response time of the VVT.

Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated. I'm very much enjoying reading about you project.
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Help in engen change

Hello Flvio,
I Do Not know if You are still active in this Forum but if you are it Would be nice to answer to our Mail : [email protected].
The reason is WE are about to take a 2.0 v6 turbo into a 156 GTA for racing purposes. WE would Look for 350 HP with an Engine to Be reliabe lets say for 8000 km. WE are sorry but WE cannot See any Photo or Video in the Forum Thread an WE would like to Profit from your experience.
Thanks in Advance
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Perfect, thank you!
Just one question: your ignition map is map based? I mean, 250% load is 1.5 bar?

Thank you,

Flavio
Sorry for the very late reply, I missed this one.

The map is based upon absolute pressure yes.


Iloper: Spark plugs are normally some NGKRs in the 9-10 heat range.
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Here's a shot of a pull, starting in 3 gear at 1.2 bar, shift in 4 at 1.8 bar and a light 5 gear
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