BMC CDA for 1.9 JTD - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 62 Old 03-06-09 Thread Starter
Status: GT gone but not forgotten
AO Member
 
05GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Midlothian
Posts: 332
BMC CDA for 1.9 JTD

For those you that have fitted a BMC CDA to a 1.9 JTD I am wondering was it worth the approx 170, what performance difference did you notice in real world driving and what difference did it make, if any, to the noise of the car?
05GT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
In my opinion it is worthed.

In terms of performance, you will get faster spool up times of your turbo...meaing you will have faster response from the engine.

Also it will flow a little more air compared to the stock air filter...which will keep your turbo happier compared to the stock air intake...and you might get a few hp in top end...some torque will also be gained.

To the noise...the car will be a noiser for sure...BUT nothing like N/A petrol cars...so don't be scared off. You will simple hear your turbo more :-)

The real problem with the BMC CDA on your car is the space to fit it....it is really small.

Alfa 147 QVD 300hp by BlackAngels, Alfa 159 2.4 QVD, Alfa 159 TI 1.9 QVD and Crosswagon edition Nero, Alfa Stelvio 2.2 Q4
kgb is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 62 Old 04-06-09 Thread Starter
Status: GT gone but not forgotten
AO Member
 
05GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Midlothian
Posts: 332
Cheers KGB
05GT is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
Would I need to remap my car again after fitting CDA and FMIC?
TribesMan is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
You can still use the old remap, as the ECU on your car sees the intake temp. in the intake manifold (JTDm from what I see in your profile) so it sees the real temp. going into the engine and "takes" the FMIC into account :-)

BUT in my opinion it would be better to make some fine adjustments to the remap, as the CDA and FMIC will allow a little more boost :-)
kgb is offline  
Status: 329 hp
Club Member
Membro Medio
 
JS JTD's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 1004
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Netherlands
County: Noord Brabant
Posts: 1,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
Would I need to remap my car again after fitting CDA and FMIC?
Yes!

To take full advantage of those parts that is recommended for sure.
Also you might get the "limp mode" if you change these parts without a modification of the map.
JS JTD is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
he will NOT get limp home mode if everything is in working order on his car.

IF his solenoid valve (the one controling the turbo) is on its way out, THEN he can get overboost problems with the BMC_CDA which will results into safe mode.
kgb is offline  
Status: 329 hp
Club Member
Membro Medio
 
JS JTD's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 1004
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Netherlands
County: Noord Brabant
Posts: 1,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb View Post
he will NOT get limp home mode if everything is in working order on his car.

IF his solenoid valve (the one controling the turbo) is on its way out, THEN he can get overboost problems with the BMC_CDA which will results into safe mode.
Also depends on how the car is mapped the first place.
JS JTD is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
Where is the intake maifold temperature sensor on JTD 16V? I thougt that it only measures intake temperature before the turbo in the MAF and then calculates the manifold temperature from pressure and air mass flow...

I'm actualy not really satisfied with my current remap because car smokes after 3500 rpm... and if it is really hot outside even at lower rpms...
My "tuner" tried to fix it but he couldnt. And then said that there must be something wrong with the car but he couldnt tell me what.
We checked MAF, EGR, turbo pipes and IC... only MAF was a bit greasy inside... everything else is OK...
I guess I will have to change my tuner not the car...
TribesMan is offline  
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

I think that on 16v JTD intake temperature is measured by MAP sensor which is located in intake manifold and has 4-wire connector (ground, 5V, pressure signal, temperature signal). On 8v JTD temperature is measured by MAF and in that reason 8v JTD has MAP sensor with 3-pin connector (ground, 5V, pressure signal)...
dusanGT is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
What Dusan wrote is correct.

But the 16v JTD takes the reading from both...MAF and MAP....but the more important one is the MAP

@TribesMan,

If your 147 is the 150 version, you can get about 190-200hp with very, very little smoke...almost none. We have done a few of these and all of them now have also the Q2 :-)
kgb is offline  
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Thank you kgb for the corrections... I had a wrong information about 1.9 JTD 16v... Best regards from Dusan.
dusanGT is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
kgb, yes mine is 150HP, but not "JTDm" it is "JTD 16V multi-jet" (I should edit my profile), so I think 190 is a bit too high for this engine. After remap I got 180BHP and 370Nm... but it smokes, which I dont like.
And I'm also not very satisfied with low end torque. I expected more "punch" in the low revs, and maybe a bit faster turbo spool up... but everything seems "the same" on the low end, there is quite a difference in high revs, engine just pulls and pulls over 4000rpm easily, much better than before.
Performance has definetely improved 60-100mph in 5. gear has dropped from 16.9s to 12.8s (measured with racelogic driftbox), but everything is so annoyingly "linear", almost like driving NA engine...

And the smoke. If it is cold outside (below 10C) it is quite bearable, it starts to smoke just a bit when you push it over 3500rpm. At 15C the smoke is quite noticeable over 3500, at 20C it starts to get annoying... But if it is over 30C you get smoke screens every time you boot it... nasty.
And my tuner insists there must be something wrong with the car... but I think it could be the other way around
I also had Q2 fitted along with uprated clutch...
TribesMan is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
Check your EGR valve and clean it...then have a real hard driving for about 10km and see if the smoke disappears.
kgb is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
I checked EGR and it looks very good/clean to me. There was a really thin layer of soot on the walls of EGR valve. I removed the electromagnet part form the valve and both are moving freely... no sign of blocked EGR.
I did quite a lot of hard driving also... but it does not make any difference at all.

I will check the MAP sensor today, to see if it is clogged. When we connected the OBD examiner and went for a spin manifold pressure was reported at ~1 bar at idle and around 1.5 bar at full throttle from 1800 and up to 4200rpm, so everything seems quite normal.
TribesMan is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
I have just removed the MAP sensor... and it does not look good... sensor is covered in thick layer of soot+oil mix... very hard to remove. I tried to scratch it off but it sticks "like **** on velcro". Should I wash it off with gasoline or alcohol? Or could that damage the map sensor?
I measured resistance of temperature sensor in the MAP. It reads around 2.5kohm on room temperature, and if you blow warm air to the sensor the resistance drops below 2kohm...

I think there must be lots of gunk inside intake manifold... is there an easy way to open and clean intake manifold?
TribesMan is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,813
Tribesman - I had this bother with the oil/soot mix inside the inlet manifold of my old 2.4 10v. Long screwdriver with a rag on the end got a lot of it out, then a dose of Ecotek PowerBoost cleaned up what was left. Restored a fair bit of lost power too, the first time I used it.

Watch out with scraping inside the manifold on yours though, I think you have swirl valves and you don't want to damage those. A water/meths injection kit will keep the inside of the inlet manifold shiny, jbsmith has one fitted to his diesel Brera (268bhp)..

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

Wizard Exhaust systems available here

Tel: 01768 879 171
Pud237 is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
Well I took a bit of a gamble and I cleaned the sensor in gasoline, reasembled it and went for a 20km drive.
But nothing has changed... It still smokes when you push it, maybe just a bit less (probably just a psychological )
Now for the mainfold cleaning... I guess I should remove EGR and butterfly valve to gain partial access to the manifold?
TribesMan is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,813
I cleaned mine through the throttle body, there is no throttle butterfly and just opens up once you get past the neck. Was very easy, not sure if the 16v is the same though. With the rag and screwdriver I got out enough solid stuff to 3/4 fill a jam jar..
Pud237 is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289


The 16V has some kind of "throttle butterfly"... so it has to be removed to gain access to manifold...
TribesMan is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
Well I took everything apart and it was quite a surprise...

First I removed the pipe from intercooler to intake manifold. It was quite oily inside. Is that normal or a sign of problems on the way?
Then I removed EGR, it looked exactly like the last time I took it off about 2 weeks ago.
After that it was time to take the intake butterfly off... and under the butterfly there was loads of soot/oil mix. In the part of manifold where EGR connects on it the airways were completely clogged.
I removed all soot in that area, but there is quite a lot of stuff inside the manifold, where air is sucked into cylinders.
I didnt try to remove the soot out of there, because I was afraid of some big pieces of gunk stucking in the pathways. There is a cover on the backside of the manifold, that should give access the complete manifold. Is it safe to remove that cover, or is that too much of a hassle?

I also noticed that my engine does not seem to have the swirl valves... is that posible?
I found the article that explains swirl valves on Opel/Vauxhal 1.9 CDTi (which should be same as my JTD 16V) but there is no sign of swirl valves on mine...
Judging by the pictures on the page 3 of the article the swirl valves should be visible when engine cover is removed... but not on mine.
Any ideas?

Now I will take the car for a spin... to see if anything has changed...
TribesMan is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
I'm back... it is better... not perfect though.
Now Ecotek Powerboost or removing manifolds and manual cleaning?

PS... I guess we are a bit off topic now... :/
TribesMan is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,813
Very off-topic, but these are connected topics so thats OK. What is the point in improving the engine's breathing if the inlet manifold is still full of sh*t?

I don't know about that cover, I don't think my 10v had one and I've not had a good look at a 16v with engine cover off etc. Does it look like it is possible to remove the inlet manifold altogether without disturbing the cambelt? The EcoTek Powerboost is very good stuff but you do want to be getting the big bits of crap out first.

That air intake will is normally a bit oily, turbo seals are never quite perfect. My JTD was like this when I bought it at 92k and just the same when I sold it 18 months later at 122k.
Pud237 is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
I found the picture of inlet manifold in ePer:



You can see that the "main tube" of the manifold is made out of two parts (it is shown as one piece on that image, but you can easily see the split that goes along the top). From what I could see there are around 10 screws that hold back side of the manifold tube. But there is also a sh*tload of cables, connections and pipes in that area. It is intimidating at least

Also there is no sign of "swirl valves" on that picture, this is the picture of M19 engine, JTD 16V multi-jet. So I can presume that swirl valves are only present on later JTDm (M92) engines?
TribesMan is offline  
Status: To GTB or not to GTB?
AO Silver Member
 
TribesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Slovenia
County: -
Posts: 2,289
And for comparison. There is the picture of intake manifold on JTDm (M92) engine:



Only visible difference is the actuator (number 13). I guess this is the actuator for swirl valves?
TribesMan is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
bmc , cda , jtd

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome