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(Post Link) post #1 of 139 Old 23-05-09 Thread Starter
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Turbo V6 3L 24V (Dyno results 450CV - 60Kgm torque)

Hi all,
I have started with my project and I want to share with you some pictures and specs.

Car: 164 Super 1996
Base Engine: Alfa Romeo V6 3L 24V (45mm Intake runners)
HP: 215HP
Wanted HP: 330-380
Fuel manag: Megasquirt 1 Plus
Injectors: 50lbs hi-impedance
Ignition manag: Megasquirt 1 Plus (COP 6coils)
Cylinder Head: Reconditioned and air intake machined.
Connecting Rods: Standards
Pistons: Forget pistons 9:1 Ratio
Turbo: GT3582
Wastegate: Tial 42mm
Intercooler: Water-Air Intercooler.

We have started with Headers and Turbo support, I could not find stock parts to help me on headers task, so, we need to build all exhaust header and turbo support.
Then we will proceed with engine rebuild.
I hope that we finish in 2,5 months with all mechanical modifications and we will start with Megasquirt Tuning (another 15) days.

This is a link to another post (in spanish) with more pics.

Here are some pics






Here you will see where will be located the Water Cooler (the ABS was realocated)




I will be posting any progress, please feel free to ask me anything that you need

BTW: The turbine in the pictures is not the rigth turbine it is a bit small turbine T3 to build the headers.

Regards

Pablo

Last edited by pablob; 29-07-11 at 16:46.
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

Hi Pablo,
Very impressive project. Is there any particular reason why you desided to mount the turbo so high? Why not to copy GTV TB setup? It looks like there is loads of space on front of the engine.
Did you consider using two turbochargers? Much better solution on V engine.
Just my 2p.
Jan
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(Post Link) post #3 of 139 Old 24-05-09 Thread Starter
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

Unfortunatelly on a "transversal V6 engine" I don't have room for the second turbo in the rear 3 cylinders. Also, I have the starter there, that rest too much room.
We also have reviewed the V6 2lt Turbo disposition but we have some limitations to put a big turbo, because I have the cooling fan and also the air there is a hot air, because it come from radiator. Another issue is that exhaust header from V6 2Lt Turbo doesn't fit into V3 3Lt engine and it require more aggressive curves to deploy a new exhaust header (the V6 2lt TB have oval tube...)

Then we found some room there and decide to put there, also we have build a strong turbo support fixed on gear box, so Im sure that Turbo will not move...

I also have researched about pros and cons with dual turbo settings vs single, and based on Corky Bells book (Maximum boost) over 250 CID (cubic inchs displacement) it is required a dual turbo setup, and bellow this you can play with single turbo setup (Im in 183 CID)

Anyway I will have some small issues to configure the wastegates, when switch the actual turbo by a bigger one...

I will post later some pictures of the turbo support , required to retain the same place when all exhaust header is really hot.
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

I know that TB manifolds can't be fitted to yours 164. It is 24v (all TB's are 12v). Don't worry about tight bents, worry about exhaust manifolds capacity. You are increasing the lag.
Proper designed twin turbo is always more "user friendly" in everyday use. Even in very small engines. But it depends what is you target. If you want to use it for drag strip - turbo lag doesn't matter.
BTW. CR looks a bit high for me but without other details (inlet temperature) can't say it for sure. And GT3582 is way too big. That's the turbo for 500 - 650 brakes (depends on its spec).
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

impressive project and I know what I mean!
against by if you stay on the engine, I do not seal the cylinder heads to decompress?
What pressure do you blow?
and gearbox you do anything to strengthen it?
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

Well, I join the club of the impressed readers too Nice job, as long as you do use real good heat isolating plates and sleeves. the oil filler cap migh melt otherwise
Seriously though, I had the same thought many years ago when I was tuning my GTV 2,0 V6 TB, to place the turbo at the same place you are doing, inorder to fit a bigger turbo.
The Peugeot 405 T16, and the new SAAB 9-3 V6 turbo are a few cars that have the turbos above the gear boxes so this means it should work fine. If turbo lag turns out to be a major problem, which i doubt it will, then just use a slightly smaller diameter on the pipes between the manifold an turbo.
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Re: Turbo upgrade for a V6 3L 24V

another very interesting thread
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(Post Link) post #8 of 139 Old 30-05-09 Thread Starter
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Many thanks for the comments and SUGGESTIONS !
I will try to answer all questions.


About TURBO POSITION
We have prioritized the turbine support to guarantee that it remain on the original position (under extreme hot conditions), so, turbine support is fixed on gearbox support and this is the first reason because the Turbine is there
Please see this photos about turbine support:








About Oil filler cup.... we have plans to remove it from there and we will use the oil chanel to send oil at Turbine inlet.


NEW CHALLENGES
We've had some problems with Turbo configuration because we've designed the exhaust manifold for a divided Turbine T3, so, put a single wastegate (tial) here is not an easy work , because we will need to have "signal" (for wastegate) from both exhaust manifold (front cilinders and rear cilinders). So the options are:
a. Use a Internal Wastegate Turbo, like T3/T40E or T3/60-1 - Garret Ball Bearings are very interesting (like GT2876R) but also very expensive
b. Use a unique wastegate configuration and design a wastegate conduct for Divided T3
c. Use a Dual wastegate configuration

Currently I'm researching if, an Internal Wastegate will work on this kind of Engines (3L 24v), to avoid the non desired "boost creep". I have found some turbo kits for Nissan V6 3.5L with internal wastegate and also I have found this special internal wastegate, that could help me to optimize the exhaust flow on internal wastegate:
Ultimate Internal wastegate valve for T3 5Bolt, high flow 3" V-band Style: atpturbo.com


TURBO LAG
Fortunatelly I have a shared small turbine (T3 - Hot AR=.80 and COLD AR=50) ,as you see in the pictures, and I will be doing the first start and Megasquirt configuration with this turbine so I will have some indicators of Turbo LAg and Inmediate response. With this small turbine I expect to start spool at 2600-2900 RPM. After some months of test I will have enough information to chose the rigth turbo (of course it will be a T3 turbine and T4 compressor)

BOOST Pressure:
The dessired pressure is 8-9 PSI on normal conditions and 12PSI on boost


CR Compression 9:1
I have had other cars with 8:1 CR Compression and the engine move very slow between 1000-3000RPMs (until turbo start to work) so, for this engine, I would like to set 9:1, and I feel that 9:1 ratio compressor on a 24V engine (I mean good VE eficiency) and using a GOOD intercooler or Watercooler will allow me to use 16-18PSIs (of course using premium fuel) and this is more than I'm looking.

Thank you so much for your comments and any ideas and more comments will be welcome, I will try to put all compressor maps researched and information derived from it to chose the best compressor MAP...
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Hi,IMHO you could use an higher boost pressure,and use H connecting rods,many people who used this engine in race say that original connecting rods are not so good and resistant...
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Any update?
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(Post Link) post #11 of 139 Old 28-09-09 Thread Starter
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Yes,
Project was delayed, I have been waiting for 2 months for the new pistons.
Actually the engine is totally dismantled and I will receive the new pistons (forget, rims, Pin, etc) in 2 days, then we will start to assemble the engine with new valves and all new gaskets (Victor Reinz) and new bearings (rods and crankshaft)
I have ordered the Delphi Injectors (42lbs) and the AEM Wide Band. Also Water cooling is coming, so, in a few days I should start with the assemble and new photos will arrive.

Here are some pics of engine and engine compartiment:























In 1 week I will be posting new image about the assemble process
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What a good answer!

What's your final choice for the turbocharger?

Are you sure about the resistance of head gaskets? Everybody suggested me not to use it,but my project is for a more powerful 3,0 (about 400cv and 55 kgm)

What pistons will you use? (Wossner,CPS...) Are you going to balance the crankshaft,after changing pistons?
Thank you,bye
Flavio
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(Post Link) post #13 of 139 Old 01-10-09 Thread Starter
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I have good news, I have a 24 new valves (stock) and new pistons, piston rings and piston rods, so we are ready to start the engine rebuilt !

Pistons are IASA (www.iasapistons.com) they are forget and with 1.2 mm less in the head (8.5:1 CR), Piston Rings are NPR (made in Japan) with Nitrato, and Piston rods are special and customs.
I will take some pictures on weekend and I will be sharing with you to compare ring-lands and piston rods and other things.

Head Gaskets: I will be using a conservative pressure from 8-12 expecting to reach 330-380hp, so I do not see the requirement to put an Iron head gasket for instance. I could see a lot of cars here using standard headgaskets with 14-20 PSIs

About Turbocharger, the ideal Tubocharger for mi objectives will be a GT3776R, but ball bearings are so expensive here, so I will try with a T3/T4E or T3/T4 60-1 or Garret GT3582... But at the begining I will use the actual turbine, it is an old garret AR .80 HOT / AR .50 COLD , It will give me a fast spool but I will loss power at the end of RPMs, It will be a first start and then I will need to put a Wastegate and new Turbo.

We have all (I think) to start the engine rebuilt so next week we will be starting...

Last edited by pablob; 02-10-09 at 11:55.
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Excellent project - nice to see this being done.

May I ask why Megasquirt, rather than DTA or Omex?

Megasquirt is a disaster waiting to happen if the mapping is not done by a professional, which most Megasquirt owners try to do themselves.
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(Post Link) post #15 of 139 Old 04-10-09 Thread Starter
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I've chosed Megasquirt because I know 2 excelent and professional people who are helping me to : Build a custom megasquirt (due to COP and another things) and To tune it on my car...
Megasquirt is a challenge for me, I have read most of the MS manuals and I like it, It is a wide deployed DIY ECU and the mayor problems that I could see are the noise signal problems (on a captor cable) and Ground problems...

MS, is like a Dynamic chip to tune for me. It will allow me to hande (for instance) 2 different kind of gasoline (RON) with disticts Injections and Ignition maps.
Another feature of MS is that it is not expensive...
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Those wiring conduits will turn brittle in no time at all

How is it going mate? any updates. Here is something more relevant to your soon to be engine environment

Your plastic wiring conduits or sheaths are rated at 80 deg C, it will heat up drastically and turn brittle in no time at all when turbo comes on boost and create an oven like atmosphere inside there.

Here is what I did to the wiring looms in the engine compartment, mine is not even a turbo. This one is for the Fuel injectors and the COP but a similar concept may be applied to the other wiring looms inside the engine compartment esp. those close to the "snail".

Since pictures tell a thousand words it is self explanatory.

The material used are :-

1. Heat shrink rubber tubes (125 deg C)

2. 100% PTFE Teflon tapes (yes those pipe threading tapes they are rated way above 200 deg c) BTW they are italian made too!!

3. Aluminium tapes adhesive backs (use to seal leaking metal roofs)

4. And some 135 deg rated 3M butyl rubber self fusing rubber tapes to wrap up loose ends here and there (pic not included) Don't ever use the black insulation tape as is almost useless in your environment.

First I removed all the already "stone hard" existing sheaths also broken in some places and inspected all the wires inside and confirmed that those brittle covers did their job for the past 14 years very well ! all the wires are in virgin condition.

Then teflon tapes are wound around those wires a few times (5 or 6 rounds should do the trick).This should work as the first line of defence , followed by the aluminium tapes and finally the heat shrink tubes pulled into tension and superglued. The black cheap insulation tape will maintain the roundness and tightness of the wrapping before the glue sets in.After that remove the insulation tapes as it is almost useless when heated up. Use Cyanoacrylate based glue as it sticks to rubber quite well. Heat up with a Ronson lighter the heat shrink tube to further tighten up any slack.
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(Post Link) post #17 of 139 Old 13-11-09 Thread Starter
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Thank you !!!

Honestly we didn't have time to think about... I m waiting the Forget Connecting Rods... Project have changed and we have decided to put Forget Connecting Rods, so it will be a safe engine ...

Also we are delivering about the Clutch, between standard and Sinterized, because there is a posibility that my wife need to drive this car (as an exception) so a Sinterized or ceramic clutch will not help me :-)
But standard will not resist..

I will post nee pics soon with new parts, Wide Band Injectors , Forged connecting rods etc etc

Regards
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Pablob - where are you sourcing the con rods from?
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(Post Link) post #19 of 139 Old 14-11-09 Thread Starter
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This is a good question, they are from Argentina and are race grade, They are building for me, because they do not have it in stock (http://www.canoprensa.com/Banners-02...Saenz-02-g.jpg) they export to Japan Europe and EEUU. the cost is 220 US dollars each and as soon as they finish I will be puting the images (its include ARP Bolts)

Pablo
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Cool project pablob ! Keep up the good work.....



Yagi-san
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(Post Link) post #21 of 139 Old 19-11-09 Thread Starter
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Here are some picks of the new wide-band
As soon as I receive the connecting rods I will be adding the photos.






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(Post Link) post #22 of 139 Old 21-02-10 Thread Starter
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Updates on the project.

Hi all, I have a few update, the project move very slowly so here are the updates:

First of all, we have moved to Forget Connection Rods :







I will be posting more pics of the rebuild process + Clutch + Fuel Injectors + Megasquirt 1 Extra
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(Post Link) post #23 of 139 Old 22-02-10 Thread Starter
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More Pics:

Clutch.
It is a Stock Clutch but with ceramic disk and other modifications. If it doesn't work we will be changing the Clutch system from pull to push...







Fuel injectors (440cm3 or 42lbs)


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(Post Link) post #24 of 139 Old 22-02-10 Thread Starter
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Rebuilt process pics :




























I will post the Megasquirt 1 Extra tomorrow with all modifications.
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(Post Link) post #25 of 139 Old 23-02-10 Thread Starter
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Here are the pics of the Megasquirt 1 Extra, I have plans to handle the Ignition and the Injection, and the ignition will be COP, 1 coil per spark. So we need to add the "cam Sensor" to megasquirt because with RPM sensor is not enough to handle COP (we can handle only wasted spark but not COP)












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