Silicon Intake Piping - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 61 Old 25-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Silicon Intake Piping

so the MAF and t/b on the 2.0 TS have 54mm diameter, and the BMC CDA 80mm.

if i wanted to change the standard filter>throttle piping to silicone/alu, what pipes would be best?

is there a straight or 45degree bend reducer to go from 80>54mm?

what would i do with the oil breather between MAF and t/b?
aziraphale is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
0of0
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

I may be wrong (surprise) but 54mm diameter sounds small?
 
(Post Link) post #3 of 61 Old 25-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

it is
aziraphale is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Have you got a CDA then Iain? I'll give you a hand fitting it if you like, as long as you're not in a rush (doing clutch slave cyl tomorrow)..

I've just got a 48mm throttle body for my 1.2 16v Punto, which will replace the standard 41mm one. Thats a 37% increase in surface area. Gonna have to try and bodge some sort of a decent intake for it too, its all standard at the moment. I have loads of piping from various different cars, I'll make summat up and join it with loads of tape, with a dirty great big K&N cone on the end, somewhere cool.

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

Wizard Exhaust systems available here

Tel: 01768 879 171
Pud237 is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 61 Old 25-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Dan, ive got a CDA, one of the first things i bought for the car, been fitted for aaaaages. what im thinking of doing is replacing the standard piping between the CDA and throttle body, and sitting the MAF next to the throttle body.

im also going to change the pipe coming from the bottom of the CDA to solid instead of that corrugated/convoluted stuff, and make that as short as possible.
aziraphale is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Ah yeah, I remember seeing you had a CDA when I was there last time

I know the piping you mean, what will you do regarding the flexi section? Have a fixed 90 degree pipe made in silicone, or take the intake out sideways and across the battery, into the wing?

If you aren't gonna be using that bit of corrugated piping I'd be happy to take it off your hands for you, my CDA is just open at the bottom which I'm sure isn't good for performance, as my corrugated pipe was used to join the CDA to the MAF, which was moved to nearer the throttle body, but then it ended up splitting so I replaced it with the AutoDelta carbon jobbie, which is a waste of money if you ask me..
Pud237 is offline  
Status: NO ITS A LANCIA !!!!
AO Member
 
gbr130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hampshire
Posts: 626
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

hi-jack sorry im thinking alot about induction on my 166 because the standed one is about a mile long im a v6 though was thinking id start by fitting a 3.0l throttle body but not sure how differant they are still researching sorry i mean saving up
cheers andy
gbr130 is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 61 Old 25-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

dan, coming out the bottom will either be 2 90 degree bends with alu joiner, coming towards the engine then thru a hole in the rad surround, or a 90 degree and 45 degree bend with joiner, going to the foglight "vent", where it is now.
you are welcome to the old pipe, its a bit bent in in one place though.


andy, no idea about t/b fitments, sorry.
aziraphale is offline  
CPH
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 253

Member car:

Alfa 33 16v

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by aziraphale View Post
so the MAF and t/b on the 2.0 TS have 54mm diameter, and the BMC CDA 80mm.

if i wanted to change the standard filter>throttle piping to silicone/alu, what pipes would be best?

is there a straight or 45degree bend reducer to go from 80>54mm?

what would i do with the oil breather between MAF and t/b?
The AFM housing is 60mm, The throttle body is 70mm.

Making the CDA fit with several bits and bops is not getting you much further because you build in some obstructions that negate the potential gains. Get a bespoke hose or get a bespoke induction kit. Operation Alfa can tell you everything about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
Have you got a CDA then Iain? I'll give you a hand fitting it if you like, as long as you're not in a rush (doing clutch slave cyl tomorrow)..

I've just got a 48mm throttle body for my 1.2 16v Punto, which will replace the standard 41mm one. Thats a 37% increase in surface area. Gonna have to try and bodge some sort of a decent intake for it too, its all standard at the moment. I have loads of piping from various different cars, I'll make summat up and join it with loads of tape, with a dirty great big K&N cone on the end, somewhere cool.
You could have asked me for a proper silicone hose for it. I have a second hand one.

The way you are going about it you might loose torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aziraphale View Post
Dan, ive got a CDA, one of the first things i bought for the car, been fitted for aaaaages. what im thinking of doing is replacing the standard piping between the CDA and throttle body, and sitting the MAF next to the throttle body.

im also going to change the pipe coming from the bottom of the CDA to solid instead of that corrugated/convoluted stuff, and make that as short as possible.
You don't want to make it as short as possible. You will loose torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbr130 View Post
hi-jack sorry im thinking alot about induction on my 166 because the standed one is about a mile long im a v6 though was thinking id start by fitting a 3.0l throttle body but not sure how differant they are still researching sorry i mean saving up
cheers andy
No need to fit the 3.0 throttle body. Get the induczion sorted properly and you will gain much more.

And there is a reason for the length of your induction. To shorten it is not the best idea.

Last edited by CPH; 26-02-09 at 07:37.
CPH is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
marko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Tyne and Wear
Posts: 2,736
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

higher peak rpm needs shorter intake, lower needs longer (hence the 2.0TS gets the variable intake manifold).

for example, the alfa 16v TS has a pretty lame 235 degree intake cam...

take this intake cam paired to 45mm runners, to get optimum torque at 3000rpm the optimal intake length is aprox 70cm (valve to filter), to get the optimal figures for 6500rpm the intake is shortened to aprox 20cm. you will never get it this short

The alfas have the variable intake manifold which can control the runner length some what to give improved torque low end with plenty power top end, best of both worlds. however you can still change the torque curve slightly by changing the length of the intake. just remember, shorter intake = higher rpm range. What you should think about doing is finding the optimum length from valve to filter to give a balance of both low and high rpm usage, unless you only use high rpm then by all means shorten away

Manufacturers are normally pretty close to spot on with the intake lengths tho and the pipe between TB and MAF is pretty well made, smooth bend so IMO not worth changing, unless your just wanting to make the engine bay look nicer

This said, these numbers would suggest the intake could be made slightly shorter. Can anyone confirm the intake runner diameter and I can calculate the exact lengths for given RPM for you.

I hope your still awake
marko is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbr130 View Post
hi-jack sorry im thinking alot about induction on my 166 because the standed one is about a mile long im a v6 though was thinking id start by fitting a 3.0l throttle body but not sure how differant they are still researching sorry i mean saving up
cheers andy
2.5, 3.0 and 3.2 use the same throttle body. Cheers Alfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
You could have asked me for a proper silicone hose for it. I have a second hand one.
PM'd you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
I hope your still awake
Hello mate, great post

Hows the old Rover getting along?
Pud237 is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
marko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Tyne and Wear
Posts: 2,736
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Hows the old Rover getting along?
I fried the engine at 202bhp... got me a corolla TSport now
marko is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
PM'd you.
Bah, no I haven't, your inbox is full. Contents of PM below:

Quote:
Hello, saw your post on Aziraphale's silicone hose thread, tell me about this second-hand pipe you have?

I wasn't really so fussed about losing low end torque as I can just rev it a bit more, but if I can keep the low end or improve it slightly thats a big bonus. Will your second hand pipe fit a 48mm TB? I don't know if they have the same external diameter or not but it is a straight swap with no fabrication. Came off a 1.6 16v Marea.

Cheers,

Dan

Sorry for the thread hijack Iain.
Pud237 is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
I fried the engine at 202bhp... got me a corolla TSport now
I drove one of those for a few weeks a couple of years ago, revvy little things, and very quick.. You should have got summat with a proper engine in it though *cough* V6 *cough*
Pud237 is offline  
CPH
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 253

Member car:

Alfa 33 16v

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
higher peak rpm needs shorter intake, lower needs longer (hence the 2.0TS gets the variable intake manifold).

for example, the alfa 16v TS has a pretty lame 235 degree intake cam...

take this intake cam paired to 45mm runners, to get optimum torque at 3000rpm the optimal intake length is aprox 70cm (valve to filter), to get the optimal figures for 6500rpm the intake is shortened to aprox 20cm. you will never get it this short

The alfas have the variable intake manifold which can control the runner length some what to give improved torque low end with plenty power top end, best of both worlds. however you can still change the torque curve slightly by changing the length of the intake. just remember, shorter intake = higher rpm range. What you should think about doing is finding the optimum length from valve to filter to give a balance of both low and high rpm usage, unless you only use high rpm then by all means shorten away

Manufacturers are normally pretty close to spot on with the intake lengths tho and the pipe between TB and MAF is pretty well made, smooth bend so IMO not worth changing, unless your just wanting to make the engine bay look nicer

This said, these numbers would suggest the intake could be made slightly shorter. Can anyone confirm the intake runner diameter and I can calculate the exact lengths for given RPM for you.

I hope your still awake
Some of it might sound right in theory, but in practical terms things look a bit different.

The manufacturers intake lengths are usually a compromise of bearable power delivery and cost.

Sometimes a longer induction will give more peak power too. You might disagree but I am doing this business every day. I live induction and have had some very peculiar experiences.

On one engine we had we shortened the stock induction length by about 300mm and 6% more peak power as well 9% more peak torque. The then 1200mm longer (900mm longer than stock) improved peak torque and peak power by another 2% apart from improving bottom end torque dramatically. It had at 7300rpm considerably more power than with the much shorter stock induction.
CPH is offline  
Status: King of the Arcade
AO Silver Member
 
Alfa_Daryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ireland
County: Cork
Posts: 2,133

Member car:

BMW E92 320D

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

How about running two intakes in!! (space dependant) One either side of fog lights area and trying to keep it as smooth as possible. Am I just dreaming?
Alfa_Daryl is offline  
(Post Link) post #17 of 61 Old 26-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

i am wanting to do things to improve the engine bay looks, yes, but i was also under the impression that smoother=better too.

getting rid of the convoluted piping would be benefical, right?

ive read on other forums that shorter is better for torque, and this was proven by me removing a very long induction kit and cold air feed from an escort rs2000 engine-well, it was in my orion-and just attaching the filter(same sort of thing as cda) to the t/b with a very short hose going to the grille. the difference in pickup was tremendous!

as for the t/b and maf measurements, is this 100% correct? someone was so sure it was 54mm when i asked...

My 156 GTA with Wizrdovoz system Video 1 Video 2
aziraphale is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

I think there is too many variables to make judgements on the theory behind induction based on one test. I've messed around with MAF right on the throttle body and K&N cone straight after that and it felt great but idled like sh*t.

I think generally speaking, smoother = better - and shortening the induction length generally means shifting the torque curve to the right, with all other things being equal. But that last part is the most important part
Pud237 is offline  
CPH
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 253

Member car:

Alfa 33 16v

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa_Daryl View Post
How about running two intakes in!! (space dependant) One either side of fog lights area and trying to keep it as smooth as possible. Am I just dreaming?
You aren't dreaming. It is a good idea. Zhe problem is executing it, which can be rather painful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aziraphale View Post
i am wanting to do things to improve the engine bay looks, yes, but i was also under the impression that smoother=better too.

getting rid of the convoluted piping would be benefical, right?

ive read on other forums that shorter is better for torque, and this was proven by me removing a very long induction kit and cold air feed from an escort rs2000 engine-well, it was in my orion-and just attaching the filter(same sort of thing as cda) to the t/b with a very short hose going to the grille. the difference in pickup was tremendous!

as for the t/b and maf measurements, is this 100% correct? someone was so sure it was 54mm when i asked...
Smoother is better.

Shorter is definitively not improving torque.

I do not doubt your impression either, but from rolling roading such experiences as yours as well as going on the drag strip, my experiences and other specialist's ones come to different results.
CPH is offline  
(Post Link) post #20 of 61 Old 26-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

i dont think there is space in the TS engine bay for two intakes.

ta for the info CPH, if i put the new piping roughly where it is now, it wont be much shorter, just a lot smoother.
aziraphale is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,802
Re: Silicon Intake Piping

CPH - what about this second hand Punto pipe then?
Pud237 is offline  
Status: Meh.
AO Platinum Member
 
NineOneSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 30,067
Garage

Member car:

GTV V6 3.0

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

see if you can try something like this

move batt to boot then use its space similar to this, it was passing though a gap next to the rad not actually behind it



NineOneSix is offline  
Status: Meh.
AO Platinum Member
 
NineOneSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 30,067
Garage

Member car:

GTV V6 3.0

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

NineOneSix is offline  
(Post Link) post #24 of 61 Old 26-02-09 Thread Starter
Status: wondering what to tweak next...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,793

Member car:

Alfa 156 GTA

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

interesting idea. not 100% sure i would want to move the battery though
aziraphale is offline  
Status: Meh.
AO Platinum Member
 
NineOneSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 30,067
Garage

Member car:

GTV V6 3.0

Re: Silicon Intake Piping

well it certainly made a nice differance! managed to get 152mph out of the old gal on track
NineOneSix is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
intake , piping , silicon

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome