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(Post Link) post #1 of 24 Old 05-02-09 Thread Starter
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GT23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Anyone know the differences between the GT2359 and GT2559 turbos?

I read somewhere that the housing is the same size but the 25 has a clipped wheel and doesn't flow as well, elsewhere the 25 flows better! there seems to be so much contradictory information out there on the interweb, hence asking here.

Last edited by jasons; 06-02-09 at 08:24.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

No idea mate, but what happened to your CL500? Just read in your sig..
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

It was in a garage in derby for some work, and some twit torched the garage and cards out back, the alfa was out the front and was undamaged luckily.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

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torched the garage and cards out back
Sorry to hear that, was there a bridge tournament or something?
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

poker, and the guys garage must have been on the line
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

That must have been a bit gutting Jason.. Did you get a decent payout for it though?
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Re: GT23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

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Originally Posted by jasons View Post
Anyone know the differences between the GT2359 and GT2559 turbos?

I read somewhere that the housing is the same size but the 25 has a clipped wheel and doesn't flow as well, elsewhere the 25 flows better! there seems to be so much contradictory information out there on the interweb, hence asking here.
Hi Jasons...

There is no GT2359, there is however a GT2259, also there is no GT 2559, there is however a GT2554R and GT2560R.. this in in accordance with Garett's latest catalogue for 2009 so i think, probably these turbos you are asking about have been discontinued. I reckon through that the difference between is the type of bearing and cooling method used.

For a comparison, and to illustrate the differences better see below with the closest turbo in production to the ones you mentioned in your post;

The GT2259 is an oil cooled journal bearing turbo...(160 - 180HP)
The GT2554R and GT2560R are ball bearing oil and water cooled. (170 - 270HP and 200 - 330HP respectively)

Journal Bearing..

A type of plain bearing designed to reduce friction by supporting radial loads. Journal bearings are often used when the load is light and motion is relatively continuous, such as in crankshafts. Journal bearings are also called radial or sleeve bearings.

Ball Bearing

A type of anti-friction bearing designed with metal balls that provide rolling motion and reduce friction between moving parts. Ball bearings are capable of operating at high speeds but cannot carry as great of a load as roller-element bearings.

According to Garett.....

"The journal bearing has long been the brawn of the turbocharger, however a ball bearing cartridge is now an affordable technology advancement that provides significant performance improvements to the turbocharger. Ball bearing innovation began as a result to work with the Garrett Motor Sports group of several racing series where it received the term the 'cartridge ball bearing'. The cartridge is a single sleeve system that contains a set of angular contact ball bearings on either end, whereas the traditional bearing system contained a set of journal bearings and a thrust bearing.

Turbo Response - When driving a vehicle with the cartridge ball bearing turbocharger, you will find exceptionally crisp and strong throttle response. Garrett Ball Bearing turbochargers spool up 15% faster than traditional journal bearings. This produces an improved response that can be converted to quicker 0-60 mph speed. In fact, some professional drivers using Garrett ball bearing turbocharged systems claim that they feel like they are driving a big, normally aspirated engine.

Reduced Oil Flow - The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil to provide adequate lubrication. This lower oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions, and diminishes the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down.

Improved Rotor Dynamics and Durability - The ball bearing cartridge gives better damping and control over shaft motion, allowing enhanced reliability of both everyday and extreme conditions. In addition, the opposed angular contact bearing cartridge eliminates the need for the thrust bearing, commonly a weak link in the turbo bearing system.

Additional Ball Bearing Options - Another option one will find is a hybrid ball bearing. This consists of replacing only the compressor side journal bearing with a single angular contact ball bearing. Since the single ball bearing can only take the thrust in one direction, a thrust bearing is still necessary and drag in the turbine side journal bearing is unchanged. With the Garrett ball bearing cartridge the rotor-group is entirely supported by the ball bearings, maximizing efficiency, performance, and durability."


Hope this helps to explain the difference...

I will do some more research on the cooling aspects and post for you..

Cheers Jasons

Stephen Manjai
BMW E36 M3 3.0 (1996), Subaru Outback 3.0R (2009), Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV (1968)
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(Post Link) post #8 of 24 Old 10-02-09 Thread Starter
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

the turbos you mentioned above are possibly not VNT - or not a VNT catalogue?

The merc 320cdi uses a GT2359V

The Renault 3.0dci, sabb 3.0TiD & Vauxhall 3.0DTi use the GT2559V.

I heard that the housing was the same, but AR ratio may be different, also the 2559 has the same turbine but clipped on the exhaust side, also heard that the 25 doesn't flow as well as the 23 but that doesn't make sense at all.

The GT2559V is an ideal upgrade turbo for many modern turbo diesels as it is the biggest of the VNT's before jumping to a 37-housing - Heavy Plant stuff!

Suprised there is no one on here you has done this type of upgarde before either as a proffession (tuners) or as a DIY style upgarde?
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

The GT25v is water cooled.

Know where to get the hoses that fit? (for oil and water)
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

A bigger turbo would result in more power but it ll also give more lag from lower revs as it ll take longer to respond. Are there any figs for how big the turbo is when the vanes are closed? Does it necessarily mean the bigger the turbo the bigger it is when the vanes are in the closed position, or do they make sure its the same size when closed as the smaller ones, just bigger when fully open. Ideally an uprated turbo would be larger when the vanes are open, but smaller (for improved response) when theyre closed...
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

little lost, but being a 25 housing it will be designed to flow more on the exhaust side and keep down exhaust manifold pressures (and temps too?) at high revs won't it?
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Um, you seem to be a bit more knowledgable about turbos than me, but I thought the principle of vnt/vgt was that the vanes open and close varying the size of the turbo, so it acts as a small turbo at low speeds cos that gives a quicker response, but when the vanes open at higher speeds its gives more arflow like a larger turbo. I was just wondering if it was the same size when the vanes are closed (or at their smallest) as the 23, or whether it was bigger when closed which would in theory make it a bit slower to respond but give more power overall. Ideally it would be the same size or smaller (for even faster response) when closed and larger when open (for more power), if what I thought is correct?...
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Don't know much about them either, but the veins close at low rpm, from what I can see, it builds up manifold pressure (now I'm guessing the rest) which then squeezes through the veins at high velocity, thus causing the exhaust turbine wheel to spin. So I am guessing that the vnt veins are all about creating velocity to spin the turbine?

The 25 is huge, and dwarfs the standard 22.

yes, it will not spool or be on boost as early as the 2256, which comes on full blow at 1500rpm once tuned.

But, as standard (140bhp) it needs 1800rpm to get it moving, so I am hoping that the gt2559v would get going at 1800-2000rpm, but more importantly sustain 30psi at maximum revs.

You will see from the last rolling road session that I am not after dyno-queen figures, 500nm at 2200rpm which then fades to nothing higher up trhe rev band is good for nothing other than breaking gearboxes and bragging about down the pub! Rather I am after a really flat torque curve from 2000 to as higher rpm as possible, I would be really happy if I could get 280lb/ft at the wheels (max - as the drivetrain can handle this) all the way through the rev band - hence the big turbo idea.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Pretty certain that the basic principle of the vanes is to create a faster response lower down the rev range and therefore minimise lag, so I reckon going bigger would create low down response probs, not that I m an expert. Sounds like you need the twin turbo version of this engine. Its been available for nearly 2 yrs in the saab 9-3 (rated at 180bhp-295ilbs/ft), the fiat version (190bhp-295ilbs/ft) is available in the new delta but not heard of it in anything else yet. (would go great in a GT with Q4 transmission-are you listening Alfa? ). They use a small turbo and a large one, the smaller one spools up first then the larger one takes over at higher revs. Maybe you could fit the manifold/turbos from one of those engines, if you can find one
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

My engine is an old 2.4 10v, rather than the late 1.9jtdm.

The AR of the GT2256v (std turbo) and GT2559v on the exhaust side is AR.64.

Its the air side on the GT2559v that is way bigger, as is the turbine wheels on both sides are bigger (56mm vs 59mm air side) as well as the VNT veins themselves are slightly bigger for the exhaust flow.

My idea is to machine the standard exhaust side of the GT2256v turbo so it fits the larger VNT veins and also the larger compressor wheel. This means the turbo is a straight fit to the manifold and exhaust system.

Then it just leaves fitting the turbine centre itself to the exhaust side, which should be a little more straight forward.

Whilst I expect a little more lag, I think the benifits will be felt throughout the rev band but moreso at high revs.

The Gt2559 is water cooled, I think this is more of a protection after switch off, but it may help just a little also in controlling the temperatures?

I had the car running 215bhp on the standard turbo, but it was at its limit.
I am hoping to push this up to 240bhp with a larger turbo, 250bhp with the help of the water/meth injection?

Last edited by jasons; 16-02-09 at 15:22.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

how does the td250 from the 136 bhp version relate to this? haven't found any figures for it, except prices...

Last edited by Cuore_Sportivo_155; 16-02-09 at 19:09.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

I see, not tuning the 147 then?

Oh and any chnace you could post some pics of your battery in boot conversion, its something I intend to do myself so would be good to see pics..
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Jason - a write-up on the battery-to-boot conversion would be great too as its something I want to get around to eventually.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Battery in the boot.

All parts were donated from a 164.

this includes the two positive cables (you really don't need the thin one), the battery box and earth strap.

routing the cable from the boot to the front bulkhead inside the car is easy, just remove the trims down the nearside and route the cable.

Getting through the bulkhead is not easy at all, but if you remove or pull back the carpet in the passenger side footwell you will find a massive rubber grommit that the abs cables feed through, with a lot of messing you can release this grommit and I chose to cut it away bit by bit untill there was nothing left. (be carefull because they seem to have moulded this grommit around the abs cables).

Then you have your route through to the engine bay, just silicone (loads) the cables in to the hole making sure of the obvious.

I didn't fit the battery tray in the boot, the guy who did used 2 of the plastic stands (about 2" tall) from the 164 bits then welded the other side of the tray to the inner panel - I am sure you could do a better job.

The relays in the engine bay from the original battery setup just swing round and can be attached to the nearside inner wing.

The bit on top of the battery (with the fuses) that connects to the positive was then attatched to a plastic peice and secured to the inner wing in a similar fashion, then the 164 cable was connected to this.

Other than a couple of bolts and a suitable piece of plastic, all the bits you need are 164 bits.

If you need the 164 bits, power cables and battery trays etc, then let me know.

I know a chap who is breaking a few 164's, I got my parts from him and I see no reason why he couldn't supply all the common parts.

I don't know what he would charge - its the time to remove the cables without damaging the ends that bolt straight onto the battery - but I would say he is a good option as most breakers will just chop through these.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

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I see, not tuning the 147 then?
..
No, I chipped it, which made it go well and feel quick, but most of the feeling quick is down to the lower gearing it has over the 2.4jtd.

The car now has front end damage due an incident in an Aldi car park (i was not driving) and as it is 3rd party cover, I doubt it will be repaired.

It was a Ti, so black leather with red stitching, black headlining, cruise, 17" Ti alloys etc, alfa red, it was a really nice car that had never been painted - even touched up before.

The damage is o/s wing and headlamp and front bumper, but it has also caught the front slam panel which needs a pull, (only minor) so I don't see it as worth repairing in view of the fact it was cat D anyway due to a really light tap on the rear - which is still unrepaired because it was so light!
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Can you find me a price for those bits please Jason? Did you use the standard battery in the boot or a different one? Chris155 has a race battery in his boot but tbh I'd prefer to use a standard one, the added weight in the rear will help if anything, and plant the rear down a little bit.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Seems a waste of a good car-what year is it? Is it a diesel?

Can you find me a price too?!

(Ps I might nick your idea of routing the intercooler pipe via the gap left by the battery)
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

used the standard battery.

The car is a 1.9JTD, Lusso Ti, (it was apparently a Ti pack fitted to the lusso, thats how they did it back then, I have the original PDi to prove its not a lusso with Ti badges - it does have all the bits in the right places) 04 plate, but only an 8v. chipped, just had new clutch slave cylinder fitted.
Needs new rear wheel bearings - which I was going to have done.

To make perfect-
need new panel at back behind bumper - then a pull in the spare wheel well - this is easy as there is only a few spot welds, I could do that bit myself but not the pull.
I have an excellent rear bumper complete, just needs painting in the correct shade of red"!

At the front, new o/s wing and headlight, front bumper, bonnet hinges (bonnet is perfect, but higes are slightly distorted) and repair to the front o/s corner of the slam panel, it looks really minor, but to make perfect would need attention.

2 rear tyres are nearly new and michelin or other tier 1 brand. The fronts have about 2mm tread.
Full alfa history, including belt change at 72k. Last service at 96k, just turned 102k now.

The light tap on the rear made it a Cat D, I bought it as such.

The body (excluding rear bumper which was cracked) was perfect, no dents scratches, dings and never been painted, interior unmarked. If you saw it pre front end damage you would think it had done 30k.

1 owner from new until july last year, 2nd owner untill made Cat D.

I am not a registered owner, so the next person would be the 3rd owner on paper. (I used the traders section, so not registered)

Other than the damage, it will need 2 tyres and rear wheel bearings in the near future.

Price, its not my call ultimately, even though I own the car, I did not damage it, the guy who did will be looking to reclaim as much as possible, but I think offers over £1250?

Its not advertised aywhere yet, I have seen mad prices for really badly damaged Cat C vehicles on ebay, which is why I think it won't hang about as the damage is 'DIY-able' and its the Ti.

164 battery bits, and about the Ti, I'll PM you the chaps number.
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Re: GTcontratictory 23 vs GT25 vnt turbo's

Cheers Jason if I could have the guys number too that'd be great
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