FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Tuning & Upgrades Discuss performance enhancements for your Alfa Romeo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

I want to mount FMIC instead of the original wing intercooler for my Alfa (fully de-cat, ,freeflow bakbox, BMC-CDA, remap with 1.55bar boost).
Can I put aluminum pipes or stainless steel pipes and can I use rubber or silicone pipes for connections. If I will mount FMIC which is in the picture bellow, where is the proper position of cold air intake regards to my BMC-CDA. What are possible benefits with this type of intercooler (bhp, torque, better acceleration, better engine response, decrease of turbo lag...).
Best regards. Dusan.

Last edited by dusanGT; 10-06-11 at 21:33.
dusanGT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
AO Member
 
Mark_JTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 563
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

As a rough rule of thumb, for every 10 degrees you can decrease the intake temps, you'll gain approx 4% more power and torque. A FMIC on my Fiat Coupe resulted in a 20 degree decrease on intake temps, but it was a big intercooler and the 10 degree drop, 4% increase applied. Just try and make as few sharp bends with the FMIC as possible.

To be honest, if you get the FMIC I'd bin the BMC CDA and go for the straight induction pipe (or SIP) from GSR. It allows the airfilter to be mounted at the end of a straight pipe where the original intercooler is located and the element of the MAF fits into the pipe. This will result in better spool up times on the turbo too.

Cheers,

Mark

Last edited by Mark_JTD; 07-01-09 at 10:35.
Mark_JTD is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

As Mark has said, GSR intake.

It is possible to get a much bigger intercooler in the front, but it means moving the rads a little.

Alloy pipes, 2.25" all the way through, remove the butterfly before the manifold and have welded the 2.25" pipe staright into the intake manifold removing all restrictions.

3bar map sensor then fit a bigger turbo - from a 2.4 GT2256?

You may need to remove the turbo and alter the exit side of the turbo housing so it points the right way.
jasons is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Mark_JTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 563
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Are there any restrictions in the exhaust manifold that can be smoothed out too?! On my Fiat Coupe a worthy mod was to grind out the manifold intake (from the head side, not turbo) making it slightly larger and smoothing out as there was a lip as the manifold holes are smaller than those in the head. It allowed the gases to get the turbo more freely, similar sort of affects as de-catting and wider diameter exhaust and it just improves the flow.

Cheers,

Mark
Mark_JTD is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Thanks for your fast response.
Your recommendation is GSR air intake instead of BMC-CDA, if I right understand. But common opinion is that the BMC is best solution especially for turbo charged engines, because CDA is closed system which have not problem with hot air in engine bay, contrary to the open system like GSR.
About the removing the butterfly - whether is it OK according in butterfly function and influence in higher MPG obtaining.
Cheers. Dusan.
dusanGT is offline  
Dibby
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Just as a thought. With all that extra money going into bits on an 8v engine, would it not be better to spend it on part-exing the car for a 16v JTD?
 
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_JTD View Post
Are there any restrictions in the exhaust manifold that can be smoothed out too?! On my Fiat Coupe a worthy mod was to grind out the manifold intake (from the head side, not turbo) making it slightly larger and smoothing out as there was a lip as the manifold holes are smaller than those in the head. It allowed the gases to get the turbo more freely, similar sort of affects as de-catting and wider diameter exhaust and it just improves the flow.

Cheers,

Mark
yes, I did this on my 10v, opened them up quite a bit from the head through where they all join together up to the turbo point.

smoothing this out gently (in theory) increases velocity to the turbo which thus aids spool up times.
Mine seems good from 1500rpm, although its not on full boost untill 17/1800rpm under WOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dusan View Post
Thanks for your fast response.
Your recommendation is GSR air intake instead of BMC-CDA, if I right understand. But common opinion is that the BMC is best solution especially for turbo charged engines, because CDA is closed system which have not problem with hot air in engine bay, contrary to the open system like GSR.
About the removing the butterfly - whether is it OK according in butterfly function and influence in higher MPG obtaining.
Cheers. Dusan.
The GSR is leagues above anything else on the market. A tubo car needs the shortest intake but also the smoothest whilst being designed for minimal turbulance whilst creating velocity towards the tubine.

As far as heat goes, the filter sits by the inner wing, you can create cold air flow from the bumper.

If you have it about you to fit the FMIC you should have no problem creating a heat sheild for the filter, but I think if you monitor the temps where the filter would be, you may find you don't need to do so.

The butterfly closes for a smooth engine shutdown, to prevent judder, thats all.On the 2.4 it goes down to '40-something mm'.
When running higher boost, thus creates turbulance in the intake manifold post resistriction, and pre restricion can cause overboost/turbo spike issues.
This is just my findings anyway, I did a loa of mods together so can't comment too much on the difference each one made, but work on the same theory, a short but well flowing route from the turbo through a large FMIC straight to the engine with no pipework restrictions untill you are into the intake manifold.
In a similar way, the intake to the turbo should be short and smooth tapering (narrowing) gently into the intake housing. You should havea large static pool of air for the filter to pick up from some dstance from the engine, but worry about the afore ather than heat,, you can sort any potential heat issues easily.

But as said, a 16V head would also be a good mod.
jasons is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,522
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

I'm considering going down the FMIC route on the GT. I can't find any info on this site or on the net though.

Haven't had a proper look yet, I imagine it's a similar set up to the 147??
G5een is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

What is the price for 16v head which is compatible with 8v JTD engine?

What are additional necessary activities for fitting of 16v head in 8v JTD engine?

In case of hardware compatibility between 16v head and 8v engine whether are necessary some changes in Bosch EDC15 ECU (remap) or is needed change of ECU itself?

What is the solution for different voltage reading of 2.5bar and 3.0bar MAP sensor for the same manifold pressure - new remap parameters?

Thanks for your response. Dusan.
dusanGT is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

there is little off the shelf tahts a decent size that will fit without mods.

I managed to fit an RS500 stye IC, which is 400x550 core size, the thing is much bigger with end tanks and even though its alloy, it weighs a fair bit.

Anything is possible, even with the limited space on the fron of a pre face 156.
jasons is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Quote:
Originally Posted by dusan View Post
What is the solution for different voltage reading of 2.5bar and 3.0bar MAP sensor for the same manifold pressure - new remap parameters?

Thanks for your response. Dusan.
should work OK. it does on a 2.4, just give you a potential of running closer to 2 bar of boost, but remove the butterfly restriction and improve the flow (2.25" pipes etc) and you'll probably find boost is lower but flow is higher anyway.
jasons is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bristol
Posts: 5,002
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Do you know what intake temps you are getting with the existing intercooler? No point putting in a bigger cooler and getting more lag if you don't need to....
mave is offline  
(Post Link) post #13 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Can I make an introduction before my question...
Readings of MAP sensors (2.5bar or 3.0bar) starts from approx. 0.3V (0.0bar absolute pressure) and upper limit is approx. 4.8V.
Voltage readings from these MAP sensors are:
a) 0.3V + 1.8V per bar (for 2.5 MAP),
b) 0.3V + 1.5V per bar (for 3.0 MAP).
If pressure defined in remap (atmo+boost pressure) is, for example, 2.5bar on 4000rpm, then readings are:
a) 0.3+1.8*2.5=4.80V (upper limit of 2.5bar MAP)
b) 0.3+1.5*2.5=4.05V (enough below the upper limit of 3.0bar MAP)
If in system is 3.0bar sensor instead of original 2.5bar sensor then ECU receives 4.05V. Then ECU thinks that pressure is (4.05-0.3)/1.8=2.083bar (below the defined 2.5bar pressure in remap)...
Sorry for my long introductory example, but question is:
If ECU thinks that pressure is not sufficient (2.083bar<2.5bar) does the ECU will send a signal to overboost (solenoid) valve for increasing the pressure (although enough pressure was achieved)... Does in that case pressure in manifold will be greater (all time) than pressure defined in remap? Is it dangerous for engine, turbocharger, etc.
Does the change in remap solves this problem?
Regars. Dusan.

Last edited by dusanGT; 07-01-09 at 19:46.
dusanGT is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Quote:
Originally Posted by mave View Post
Do you know what intake temps you are getting with the existing intercooler? No point putting in a bigger cooler and getting more lag if you don't need to....
In my remaped Alfa the existent intercooler is small, old and probably with some leaks and cracks.
Even in case the original intercooler is quite enough for factory settings and for modest remap circumstances, new and bigger intercooler and new intercooler pipes will give more performance, for sure.
And investment seems to be reasonable (about 250€-300€ for complete FMIC kit).
Regards. Dusan.
dusanGT is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

You can try finding the pictures of my 147 with the FMIC...
kgb is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 527 Old 07-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

I see these pictures on
Index of /147tuning/stage5
and I have similar idea about FMIC and pipework mounting...
Best regards. Dusan.
dusanGT is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Mark_JTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 563
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

I wonder if it's worth considering contacting an intercooler manufacturer and seeing if they would be interested in creating off shelf intercoolers for the 147's and 156's(not sure if the GT would need it's own or if a 147/156 one would fit?!).

There was a similar thing on FCCUK(Fiat Coupe Club UK) where the only available off the shelf FMIC was a dual pass one made by Pace(which wasn't great). One of the chaps took his car to Pro-Alloy, they created a prototype on his car and now it's a production off the shelf intercooler for Fiat Coupes. I wonder if companies would be interested in taking this on as I'd imagine we'd quite comfortably get 10+ people interesting in buying them from the forum.

Cheers,

Mark

Last edited by Mark_JTD; 08-01-09 at 09:53.
Mark_JTD is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

pace will produce any intercooler size.
jasons is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,327
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_JTD View Post
I wonder if it's worth considering contacting an intercooler manufacturer and seeing if they would be interested in creating off the intercoolers for the 147's and 156's(not sure if the GT would need it's own or if a 147/156 one would fit?!).

There was a similar thing on FCCUK(Fiat Coupe Club UK) where the only available off the shelf FMIC was a dual pass one made by Pace(which wasn't great). One of the chaps took his car to Pro-Alloy, they created a prototype on his car and now it's a production off the shelf intercooler for Fiat Coupes. I wonder if companies would be interested in taking this on as I'd imagine we'd quite comfortably get 10+ people interesting in buying them from the forum.

Cheers,

Mark

That is a very good idea...as we have number of people that are thinking of fitting FMIC.

147/156/GT are almost identical..when it comes to FMIC
kgb is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Mark_JTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 563
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb View Post
147/156/GT are almost identical..when it comes to FMIC
So would the intercooler be the same on those but the piping to the inlet would be different?! Are the 8v/16v 1.9's inlet and engine layout the same, just a different head, same as the 10v 2.4 and 20v 2.4?!

Might be able to possibly get away with 2 versions for the FMIC then, a 1.9 and a 2.4 version?!

Cheers,

Mark
Mark_JTD is offline  
(Post Link) post #21 of 527 Old 08-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

What is intecooler in this link ALFA JTD Intercooler maggiorato
Penso Tuning Technologies - Italy.
ALFA JTD Intercooler maggiorato (see picture below).
Does exist problem with turbolag if intercooler size is nonadequate?
Is it OK size of FMIC what is in picture comparing to the original IC for Alfa 147 1.9 JTD 8v regards to turbolag aspect?
Best regards. Dusan.

Last edited by dusanGT; 25-08-10 at 06:23.
dusanGT is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Mark_JTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 563
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

It's a shame they don't have a price on the website for that. I don't think it's the size of the intercooler that's the problem, more the amount of pipework required.

Cheers,

Mark

Last edited by Mark_JTD; 08-01-09 at 13:27.
Mark_JTD is offline  
(Post Link) post #23 of 527 Old 08-01-09 Thread Starter
Status: To err is human, but feel is divine!
AO Member
 
dusanGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Novi Sad
County: Serbia
Posts: 782

Member car:

GT JTDm + Q2

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

Will you go in:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/jbimotorspo...QQftidZ2QQtZkm

2 1/2" 63mm Universal Turbo Intercooler Pipe Hose Kit................for &#163;89.77
UNIVERSAL ALLOY INTERCOOLER MEDIUM UPGRADE SIZE FMIC.....for &#163;79.50
Sum is: &#163;169.27

Best regatds. Dusan
dusanGT is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,522
Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

How do you mount the intercooler?? Would you need to fabricate mounts etc?? How much turbo lag would you get from installing a larger intercooler and longer piping??
G5een is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Derbyshire
Posts: 1,613

Member car:

159 Ti

Re: FMIC for 147 1.9 JTD 8v

the silver car above...

that would need a bit of modding to the front bumper to make it fit, may even need to los a fog light.
The facelift and GT seems to have more room with the deeper bumper.

An intercooler of 180mm height will fit, but because of its small dimensions (550x180mm core size) you would do well to try and get a deeper one, 70-80mm, most ebay ones seem to be 55mm core depth size.

******THIS IS NOT A BIG INTERCOOLER****** the old saab 900 turbo IC I had prior was a larger size than this one, Do not be concerned about lag on an IC of this size. Go bigger (as in longer and deeper core if you can) its all about surface area - so a longer core is better - failing that go deeper.

The ebay pipe kits are great, but you MUST have ring of weld put on to stop the silicone hoses from blowing off, I had this done 1" before the end of the pipe so I could circlip before and after the ring of weld making sure it definately won't blow off.

1.6+ bar of boost is a hell of a force, don't dream that with a ring of weld or similar this will all hold together.

The bigger the cooler the better - within reason, in the turbo power band you will barely noticeany difference in lag, in fact the extra split second to boost will help prevent any turbo spiking (overboosting issues)

2.25" alloy pipe as a minimum, don't go any less!

Last edited by jasons; 08-01-09 at 15:59.
jasons is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Tuning & Upgrades

Tags
147 , fmic , jtd




Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome