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V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

Hi there,

First topic outside of the newbie area for me, so go easy please. Right, first of all the project - I have a Lancia Montecarlo (for those of you who don't know what these are - picture of mine here

P131108_18_30 - Alfa Romeo Images

It's mid-engined, using the Lampredi 2 litre, 8 valve 4 pot banger, which is fine, but the car was originally designed by Fiat to have a 3 litre V6. I can't afford to go along the transaxle route, which would require a complete reworking of the rear end. But it is possible to fit a transverse v6. It has been done before - 10 years ago and I want to do something similar. However, I don't know too much about the engines at the moment and I'd like some pointers as to what to consider.

I understand the 12 valve 3 litre has a stronger bottom end than the 24 valve, but would that preclude using a 24 valve unit? Is it worth looking at the 2.5 or going bigger than 3 litres?

The car does have improved suspension and brakes already and I will be looking to run FI on the car with Megasquirt to look after management.

Feel free to chip in and thanks in advance for your input!

Cheers

Darren
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

Why you think that 12v has a stronger bottom end? 24v has timing belt issues but you can avoid it quite easily. I dont know your budget but if you can go for 3.2 24v. It is nearly always the best to start with as much as possible.
Nice project BTW. I have seen Montecarlo with Busso V6 before (it was supercharged later).
Jan
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

I don't know if the December 2008 issue of Practical Performance Car would help? It mentions some chap called Mick Covill.

The article features this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANCIA-BETA-grp4-SPECIAL_W0QQitemZ270325255386QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAu tomobiles_UK?hash=item270325255386&_trksid=p3286.c 0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A 1|240%3A1318

And the Alfasud in the background.

The sud features 2 (one at the front, one at the rear) 3 litre 12V V6s.

The article says it was relatively easy to modify the selector of the gear linkage for the rear mounted V6, and reckons that the V6 could have designed to be used in both front and mid mounted applications.

It was quite clever how he got both clutches working. He used a brake master cylinder for the clutch wiring one of each of the brake circuits into each clutch.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Originally Posted by Yaninnya View Post
Why you think that 12v has a stronger bottom end? 24v has timing belt issues but you can avoid it quite easily. I dont know your budget but if you can go for 3.2 24v. It is nearly always the best to start with as much as possible.
Nice project BTW. I have seen Montecarlo with Busso V6 before (it was supercharged later).
Jan
Hi Jan,

It was just what I think I heard somewhere. I like the idea of a 3.2, but is there any particular issue with any of the engines? I will obviously be fabricating a new exhaust and I think that the easier the setup the better. I also need to consider upgading or tuning improvements that don't cost the earth. I guess that's why I was looking at the 12v, but I'm open to suggestions. I have seen a few places on eBay that offer recon units, and a few bits and pieces in the classified on this site.

You may have seen Paul Millet's MonsterMonte - it has a 12v V6 with an Aston Martin blower in attendance, but as I say, it was done over 10 years ago, and I thought I'd see if anything had changed first.

Thanks for the comments!

Cheers

Darren
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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I don't know if the December 2008 issue of Practical Performance Car would help? It mentions some chap called Mick Covill.

The article features this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANCIA-BETA-grp4-SPECIAL_W0QQitemZ270325255386QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAu tomobiles_UK?hash=item270325255386&_trksid=p3286.c 0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|24 0%3A1318

And the Alfasud in the background.

The sud features 2 (one at the front, one at the rear) 3 litre 12V V6s.

The article says it was relatively easy to modify the selector of the gear linkage for the rear mounted V6, and reckons that the V6 could have designed to be used in both front and mid mounted applications.

It was quite clever how he got both clutches working. He used a brake master cylinder for the clutch wiring one of each of the brake circuits into each clutch.
No, I've not seen that one - I'll have a look out for it later. I had a long chat with Mick at Gaydon and the NEC last year - mainly about his excellent Beta. We also touched on the Sud too, but he's the wrong end of the country for me! ;o)

Good to know the linkage issue can be solved relatively easily - now all I need to do is decide on which V6 to go for!
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Originally Posted by Yaninnya View Post
Why you think that 12v has a stronger bottom end? 24v has timing belt issues but you can avoid it quite easily. I dont know your budget but if you can go for 3.2 24v. It is nearly always the best to start with as much as possible.
Nice project BTW. I have seen Montecarlo with Busso V6 before (it was supercharged later).
Jan
I think perhaps he means that the 12v unit will have more low rev torque/power than the 24v unit, which will have more power at high revs? This is generally true of 4 cylinder cars, where the 8valve delivers more power at low revs and the 16v delivers more power at high revs - example; MkII Golf GTi.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

I would go with a 3 litre 24 valve.

The 12v's that I have owned have actually felt less torquey at the bottom end than the 12 valves. They also have things like hydraulic tappets which means less maintenance.

I would not go for a 2.5 it's a good engine but it is no where near as torquey as the 3 litre. Its also just as thirsty.

The 3.2 would also be a good choice but good senodhand ones are rare and expensive.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

Hi Darren,
It is quite hard to advice as I don't know your preferences and budget. As I mentioned before go for as big as possible engine. It means 3.0 or 3.2 24v (but 3.0 12v you can get for next to nothing) or... 2.0 TB. Loads of potential in TB but qute a lot of issues to solve with mid engine configuration.
Also contact Hawk - it is the company which is making Stratos replica and one of the engine options is Alfa V6. They shoud have some usefull stuff like gearchange linkage.
Yes, it was a MonsterMonte. I even remember it before supercharger instalation. Also remember swedish white Montecarlo with Ferarri engine (from Thema 8.32). Old days...
Jan
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Originally Posted by symonh2000 View Post
I would go with a 3 litre 24 valve.

The 12v's that I have owned have actually felt less torquey at the bottom end than the 12 valves. They also have things like hydraulic tappets which means less maintenance.

I would not go for a 2.5 it's a good engine but it is no where near as torquey as the 3 litre. Its also just as thirsty.

The 3.2 would also be a good choice but good senodhand ones are rare and expensive.
I take it you meant that the 12 valves you had were less torquey than the 24 valves? What can I expect to pay for a 12 valve vs a 24 valve 3 Litre?

I take it the 3.2 is a modern engine in comparison??
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Originally Posted by Yaninnya View Post
Hi Darren,
It is quite hard to advice as I don't know your preferences and budget. As I mentioned before go for as big as possible engine. It means 3.0 or 3.2 24v (but 3.0 12v you can get for next to nothing) or... 2.0 TB. Loads of potential in TB but qute a lot of issues to solve with mid engine configuration.
Also contact Hawk - it is the company which is making Stratos replica and one of the engine options is Alfa V6. They shoud have some usefull stuff like gearchange linkage.
Yes, it was a MonsterMonte. I even remember it before supercharger instalation. Also remember swedish white Montecarlo with Ferarri engine (from Thema 8.32). Old days...
Jan
Hi Jan,

I remember seeing pics of the 8.32 Monte - now that really is a shoehorn job!! That and the drivetrain is very hard to come by, not to mention expensive.

I've pretty much dropped the 2.5L idea now I think. How easy are the 3 litre engines to work on. I'd almost be happier buy a bag of bits and build an engine from them than buy a recon unit to drop in. It's why I decided on the megasquirt build yourself - that and the cost! ;o) Are there any particular good or bad places to look for a lump?

Great idea with Hawk Cars - thank you - I'll give em a call.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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I take it you meant that the 12 valves you had were less torquey than the 24 valves? What can I expect to pay for a 12 valve vs a 24 valve 3 Litre?

I take it the 3.2 is a modern engine in comparison??
The 3.2 I was referring to was the proper Alfa V6, as fitted to the GTV, GTV Spider, 156 GTA, 166, 147 GTA, and GT 3.2

The 3 litre 24v is very torquey low down for a multi valve engine, although the 3.2 uses different cams and tends to produce slightly less lower end torque.

The easiest place top get a 24v 3 litre is probably from a 164, the version fitted to the 3 litre super/super lusso is 210bhp and the 24v cloverleaf version is 230bhp (But has a bit less torque).

There are some small detail differences between the 164 24v and the GTV 24V etc, but I take it you will be making custom mounts so it should not be too much of an issue.


Another good engine option IMO would be a 5 cylinder Fiat coupe turbo engine. They are cheaper and easier to get than Alfa V6's, but it is physically longer so it may be harder to fit it to the car.

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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

speak to STRAT24V (he's on here) hes got a Lancia Stratos with a 3.2 gta transverse in the rear...
He's your man, clever bloke
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Originally Posted by symonh2000 View Post
The 3.2 I was referring to was the proper Alfa V6, as fitted to the GTV, GTV Spider, 156 GTA, 166, 147 GTA, and GT 3.2

The 3 litre 24v is very torquey low down for a multi valve engine, although the 3.2 uses different cams and tends to produce slightly less lower end torque.

The easiest place top get a 24v 3 litre is probably from a 164, the version fitted to the 3 litre super/super lusso is 210bhp and the 24v cloverleaf version is 230bhp (But has a bit less torque).

There are some small detail differences between the 164 24v and the GTV 24V etc, but I take it you will be making custom mounts so it should not be too much of an issue.


Another good engine option IMO would be a 5 cylinder Fiat coupe turbo engine. They are cheaper and easier to get than Alfa V6's, but it is physically longer so it may be harder to fit it to the car.
Thanks for the info. I guess torque is more important to me than outrright power. Anything over 200 bhp is going to be fine with me, it's the torque that makes for the fun driving that I'm looking for, along with the sound of a V6 engine! ;o)

I think I will start with standard mounts and see if they can be used. What is the torque comparison between the 3l 12 valve and the 24 valve?

I'll pass on the Fiat Turbo idea - space may well be an issue - turbo is good, but I'd rather be blown! ;o)

Thanks again for all your advice mate
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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speak to STRAT24V (he's on here) hes got a Lancia Stratos with a 3.2 gta transverse in the rear...
He's your man, clever bloke
Thanks for the pointer - is it best to PM him?
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Thanks for the info. I guess torque is more important to me than outrright power. Anything over 200 bhp is going to be fine with me, it's the torque that makes for the fun driving that I'm looking for, along with the sound of a V6 engine! ;o)

I think I will start with standard mounts and see if they can be used. What is the torque comparison between the 3l 12 valve and the 24 valve?

I'll pass on the Fiat Turbo idea - space may well be an issue - turbo is good, but I'd rather be blown! ;o)

Thanks again for all your advice mate
I think the 3 litre is around 180lbft of torque at 3000rpm and the 24v is around 199lbFt at 4000rpm or something similar.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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I think the 3 litre is around 180lbft of torque at 3000rpm and the 24v is around 199lbFt at 4000rpm or something similar.
Hmmm decisions decisions! What's the story with the relative gearboxes? With the Monte, I have been able to transplant the internals from the Volumex into a Monte box, which gives a much more useable 1st gear (around 45 mph) and a taller 5th for cruising. LSD isn't really an issue, although I hear that it would be possible to use the slipper from a Fiat Turbo - even if it is a sealed unit and non-repairable.

Someone mentioned pulley issues was it with the 24 Valve - nothing that can't be worked round I take it?
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

Hi,

I used to have a Montecarlo - which was a bit like yours. Until a motorbike hit it and it was written off. Although mine was a series 2 which I understand is a little better - still didn't stop me breaking in the wet and having to bite my bottom lip each and every time!

Those bumpers are difficult to get but certainly look good. They were from LDS or something weren't they?

Interestingly I have a couple of older Fast Car magazines on ebay at the moment that show the development of the Paul Brace Montecarlo, that I had the option to buy once. Unfortunately it was a bit rusty again by the time it was for sale - and expensive, so probably best avoided.

Good luck with the project.

I would go with a 24v V6 as a starting point - for what it is worth.

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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

Thought i'd better chime in,

Personal choice, go for a 24v 3.0 from a 166 manual. With that you get a better basis for future mods, the engine comes with the over size chrome runners as standard, a better timing belt setup and a six speed box that takes the super value q2 lsd. Although the box is cable operated as standard, its easy to change to a solid mechanical linkage.

Twelve valve engines aren't really worth messing with now, its said they do feel more torquey low down but in reality its more likely the same, just a much bigger top end rush with a 24v, plus to up the power to the level of a stock 166 would cost well into 4 figures.

John.

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GP4 Stratos replica, modded 3.2 gta. - in the back.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Hi,

I used to have a Montecarlo - which was a bit like yours. Until a motorbike hit it and it was written off. Although mine was a series 2 which I understand is a little better - still didn't stop me breaking in the wet and having to bite my bottom lip each and every time!

Those bumpers are difficult to get but certainly look good. They were from LDS or something weren't they?

Interestingly I have a couple of older Fast Car magazines on ebay at the moment that show the development of the Paul Brace Montecarlo, that I had the option to buy once. Unfortunately it was a bit rusty again by the time it was for sale - and expensive, so probably best avoided.

Good luck with the project.

I would go with a 24v V6 as a starting point - for what it is worth.

E.
Hi Edward,

That's a real shame about your car mate - we can now take advantage of more modern braking and ditch those nasty sliding single piston calipers!! The car has (or rather will have once it's all been fitted!) 284 vented disks (fiat coupe turbo 16v fronts) all round with 4 pot calipers all round with more modern pad compunds (EBC greenstuff) The master cylinder stays the same, but a bias valved is added to dial out the rear braking a bit and you have a massive difference in braking power and efficiency.

I love the bumpers from a distance! ;o) The upclose quality is pants to be honest. The rear was truly an awful bit of fibregalssing. That came from the States and ultimately will be replaced when I fabricate my own one. The front is an LDD item from Omicron - the quality is marginally better, but it was on the cheap side and I guess you get what you pay for.

Got a link to those mags?

Thanks for the advice - looking like 3L V6 24valve is the way to go!
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Thought i'd better chime in,

Personal choice, go for a 24v 3.0 from a 166 manual. With that you get a better basis for future mods, the engine comes with the over size chrome runners as standard, a better timing belt setup and a six speed box that takes the super value q2 lsd. Although the box is cable operated as standard, its easy to change to a solid mechanical linkage.

Twelve valve engines aren't really worth messing with now, its said they do feel more torquey low down but in reality its more likely the same, just a much bigger top end rush with a 24v, plus to up the power to the level of a stock 166 would cost well into 4 figures.

John.
Hi John - Thank you for adding to the discussion. I will take your advice, along with everyone else and got for the 24 valve v6 and the 166 gearbox. Does the slipper comes as standard with the 166 box or is it an addition? The MR2s have cable arrangements for the gear selection, so I was wondering on the merits of retaining the same system, or is the Startos set up an improvement?

I'll start looking around for a engine and box - what sort of money would you expect to pay - separately and together?

Thanks again

Darren
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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Hi there,

First topic outside of the newbie area for me, so go easy please. Right, first of all the project - I have a Lancia Montecarlo (for those of you who don't know what these are - picture of mine here
A very, very cool car One of my favourites from my younger years.

Ben
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A very, very cool car One of my favourites from my younger years.

Ben
Thanks Ben - It's part of the family now - I've had it for about 13 years so I think it will probably end up as an heirloom! ;o)
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

!66 3.0, Hmmm....

Up to 1k for a complete engine and box including ancillaries perhaps, if it was in good nick and low miles. On their own, maybe 600 for a good engine, 300 for a good box?? Market forces dictate

The q2 lsd is an aftermarket piece of kit sold by your friendly alfa dealer or specialist, around 300 quid, bargain.

Gearchange mechanism, you could adapt an mr2 stick and cables but what you have already from the stick to the rear bulkhead will do, just needs some new bits in the engine bay, nowt too much to worry about at this stage.
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

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!66 3.0, Hmmm....

Up to 1k for a complete engine and box including ancillaries perhaps, if it was in good nick and low miles. On their own, maybe 600 for a good engine, 300 for a good box?? Market forces dictate

The q2 lsd is an aftermarket piece of kit sold by your friendly alfa dealer or specialist, around 300 quid, bargain.

Gearchange mechanism, you could adapt an mr2 stick and cables but what you have already from the stick to the rear bulkhead will do, just needs some new bits in the engine bay, nowt too much to worry about at this stage.
How old are these engines now - low mileage under 100k? Significantly under 100k? I take that gasket sets, bearings etc are easy enough to come by? Been offered a 6 speed 166 box for 290 quid off a 125k mile car - sound reasonable?

My thinking at the moment is that I'll probably end up doing a rebuild anyway, unless I swallow hard and get a warrantied job - if it's possible bearing in mind what it's destined for! ;o)

Good to know on the slipper - thanks. I'll probably try the car without initially and see if it's needed.

Good news on the gearstick mechanism, although as you say, it's a way off yet! ;o)
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Re: V6 Choice to Make - Advice Please

alfa were doing recon boxes for 800 ish, not sure what Ned at Autolusso is charging for a rebuilt/Q2'd unit??

Not too clued up on box differences, sure that a 156 2.5 v6 has different internals though. May be better to buy a complete 166 and break it for parts. That way you can hear it run etc. Let me know if you do.

You may need to go through SVA/BIVA too
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