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(Post Link) post #1 of 26 Old 03-01-09 Thread Starter
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Hmmm Post remap advice

Hi Guys

I had my car remapped recently (GT 55 plate which has done 25k) and I could do with some pearls of wisdom. From reading other posts of cars that have been done most have been able to make 180+bhp easily. These are the results of my map.

1st run 143.1 bhp 200.7 ft-lb torque
2nd run 172.3 bhp 227.7 ft-lb torque

Don't get me wrong you really can tell the difference but does anyone have any idea why the car seems to be coming up short in the power stakes ?

On the day I was given a couple of possible reasons

1. Due to running 18's there is increased drag
2. GT's from 06 onwards jets operate better

I mentioned point 2 because one of the guys who had a 06 GT done at the same time had a result of 195 BHP.

That's a difference of 23 BHP . I can understand small differences but that huge .

The car has been serviced since the map and nothing was flagged on examiner so do you guys have any other thought's as to why the difference should be so big ?

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Re: Post remap advice

Hard to say what might be the issue, my 04 GT hit 180 no problem getting past 190 was difficult, tried many maps but to no avail, from just looking at you're numbers the cars seems quite down, even at stock my car had 146bhp (might have been 148, don't recall) and 233lbs of torque, after remap you should be looking at about 270-290lbs of torque.

Check the simple stuff like the intake, filter and pipe work could be either a blockage or a leaking pipe, one of the boost pipes is known to rub a hole in itself against a nut.

Other than that i'm not sure, EGR, AFM? Perhaps more technical here on here can help.
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Re: Post remap advice

where was it done ?
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Re: Post remap advice

torque figs look odd
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Re: Post remap advice

oversized wheels compared to standard will make a difference, but not that much, a friends 1.8 stilo lost 5bhp because she had 19's compared to someone elses 1.8 with standard 17's, but that is alot of bhp and torque to be missing.

Fueling issue maybe, but then any problems of that sought will have been highlighted on the rolling road.

Could be a bad maf, these can give very erratic reading but still stay within there tollerances and not show signs of dying

iddealy, you need to go on another rolling road as the rollers could have been slipping depending on how much they had been used that day.

had to get some one to sit on my slam panel when my stilo was on the rollers as it was under reading by about 30bhp after someone with the same mods on the same car just run theirs.

could be alot of factors involved. If your fuel economy dives rather than gets better, then id suspect maf 1st




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(Post Link) post #6 of 26 Old 04-01-09 Thread Starter
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Re: Post remap advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandys View Post

Check the simple stuff like the intake, filter and pipe work could be either a blockage or a leaking pipe, one of the boost pipes is known to rub a hole in itself against a nut.

Other than that i'm not sure, EGR, AFM? Perhaps more technical here on here can help.
I had the pipe with the rubbing issue checked when the service was done and all was ok and the EGR was replaced about 6 months prior to the map due to failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adie View Post
where was it done ?
Red Dot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa-Red View Post
If your fuel economy dives rather than gets better, then id suspect maf 1st
Hmm may be on to something there the MPG has taken a hit of about -4 MPG

Thanks guys keep the ideas coming
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Re: Post remap advice

could be maf or map sensor.

did Oggie tap in to measure the boost pressure of the turbo? (may not be able to if the car doesn't have a boost gauge fitted)

Maf will sometimes cause slow spool up, making the car really laggy, tends to cause under fuelling, you could try disconecting it...

Map sensor will mess with the amount of boost, you need more boost to get more power - it would be good to know what boost its running.

EGR - just a pain in the... as a test you could just cap it off with a bit of coke can to see if it makes a difference.

Split boost pipes - you would normally hear the turbo whistling more, possibly signs of oil from where the leak is, depending on the size of the hole, a drop in boost pressure - again, handy to have a boost gauge.
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Re: Post remap advice

I'm surprised Red Dot didn't do a full check on maf's, air filters & so on
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Re: Post remap advice

if they're claiming to be giving you a figure for the flywheel power then what wheels you have on shouldn't matter ?
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Re: Post remap advice

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Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso View Post
I'm surprised Red Dot didn't do a full check on maf's, air filters & so on
its up too you too make sure your car is in full working order, not their fault if is not.

if there is a fueling problem it will have come on the computer screen, as my stilo did
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Re: Post remap advice

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if they're claiming to be giving you a figure for the flywheel power then what wheels you have on shouldn't matter ?
thats true but RD can do both
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Re: Post remap advice

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Originally Posted by phil-gtv6 View Post
if they're claiming to be giving you a figure for the flywheel power then what wheels you have on shouldn't matter ?
The thing this the flywheel power is calculated from the wheel horse power ... given the transmission losses/gear ratios/wheel sizes!!!! etc ...
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Re: Post remap advice

That is torque measured at the wheels, and power calculated at the flywheel, right? Which is how most Red Dot rolling road printouts I've seen show the power and torque figs.

One remap isn't the same as another remap, maybe the guy with 23bhp more had a slightly more agressive map on it, as well as it being a later model? I had my old JTD remapped by Angel, then a CDA fitted and remapped again by Angel, about a year later, and the second power increase felt just as much of a gain as the first. Meaning the first one was probably tamer than it needed to be..

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Re: Post remap advice

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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
That is torque measured at the wheels, and power calculated at the flywheel, right? Which is how most Red Dot rolling road printouts I've seen show the power and torque figs.

One remap isn't the same as another remap, maybe the guy with 23bhp more had a slightly more agressive map on it, as well as it being a later model? I had my old JTD remapped by Angel, then a CDA fitted and remapped again by Angel, about a year later, and the second power increase felt just as much of a gain as the first. Meaning the first one was probably tamer than it needed to be..
thats it, with nearly all rolling road remaps are different, and can vary greatly, if he asked oggie to make it more agressive, turn the boost up a bit then he will, its up to the owner at the end day what he does with his power, and his transmision
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(Post Link) post #15 of 26 Old 04-01-09 Thread Starter
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Re: Post remap advice

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thats it, with nearly all rolling road remaps are different, and can vary greatly, if he asked oggie to make it more agressive, turn the boost up a bit then he will, its up to the owner at the end day what he does with his power, and his transmision
I'd be surprised if that was the case as on the day I can't remember anyone being asked what type of map they would like?. I certainly wasn't asked, but for clarification I'll PM the other member.
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Re: Post remap advice

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I'd be surprised if that was the case as on the day I can't remember anyone being asked what type of map they would like?. I certainly wasn't asked, but for clarification I'll PM the other member.
they dont ask you, you ask them

which is what i said
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Re: Post remap advice

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I'd be surprised if that was the case as on the day I can't remember anyone being asked what type of map they would like?. I certainly wasn't asked, but for clarification I'll PM the other member.
I think you just get "the usual", unless you ask for something special. They can tailor a map to either be more economical or more powerful, or just give you a little bit more of both, which is what most places normally do. Red Dot took my mates 330D from 183bhp to 229bhp, massive improvement in torque as well, I think they know their stuff but I think most of the maps they do are just generic, if you only got two runs on the rolling road how can it be anything else?
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Re: Post remap advice

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I think you just get "the usual", unless you ask for something special. They can tailor a map to either be more economical or more powerful, or just give you a little bit more of both, which is what most places normally do. Red Dot took my mates 330D from 183bhp to 229bhp, massive improvement in torque as well, I think they know their stuff but I think most of the maps they do are just generic, if you only got two runs on the rolling road how can it be anything else?
what i said, its not a generic map as such, thats what it started as, then they changed there own bits, mainly on the fiat models as they are tied in well with GSR Engineering who do the induction kits ect, i know the owner pete very well and they rarely use the basic generic map, but will do to what you require. they do the max within safe tollerances between transmission etc, but if you want more, just ask

but on your own head be it
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Re: Post remap advice

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what i said, its not a generic map as such, thats what it started as, then they changed there own bits, mainly on the fiat models as they are tied in well with GSR Engineering who do the induction kits ect, i know the owner pete very well and they rarely use the basic generic map, but will do to what you require. they do the max within safe tollerances between transmission etc, but if you want more, just ask

but on your own head be it
From what I have heard it was Red Dot that actually wrote the generic maps that were sold on to other remappers, some of which are probably still being used today, although no doubt Red Dot will have improved them further over the years.

What I meant by 'generic', was that the map is not custom to the car. You get a 'pre' rolling road, the map is put on, you get a 'post' rolling road to show the improvement, you pays your money and leaves. But a true custom map would be to then tweak it after viewing the second rolling road, try and smooth the curve a bit, bring in the torque earlier and maintain it longer, with fuelling adjustments. Then possibly even a second tweak after a third rolling road. Obviously that will cost a lot more though, as it will take a lot more time.
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Re: Post remap advice

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From what I have heard it was Red Dot that actually wrote the generic maps that were sold on to other remappers, some of which are probably still being used today, although no doubt Red Dot will have improved them further over the years.

What I meant by 'generic', was that the map is not custom to the car. You get a 'pre' rolling road, the map is put on, you get a 'post' rolling road to show the improvement, you pays your money and leaves. But a true custom map would be to then tweak it after viewing the second rolling road, try and smooth the curve a bit, bring in the torque earlier and maintain it longer, with fuelling adjustments. Then possibly even a second tweak after a third rolling road. Obviously that will cost a lot more though, as it will take a lot more time.
not when you know the right people

mine got tweaked so many times trying to get to the bottom of my problems but to know avail, my car was screwed

didnt cost me ought though

pete, oggie and crew are a great bunch
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Re: Post remap advice

Voo,
I did not ask for anything special. I just took what I was given. (And very pleased with it!) As I said, I think it is to do with the newer engines and the multi jets. Don't ask me what the the difference is as I'm not technicaly minded!! :
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Re: Post remap advice

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Voo,
I did not ask for anything special. I just took what I was given. (And very pleased with it!) As I said, I think it is to do with the newer engines and the multi jets. Don't ask me what the the difference is as I'm not technicaly minded!! :
the only differences where the normal mjet and the Q2, the Q2 having more standard bhp (170)

there may have been advances in the injector tech, bot not 30 bhp worth. id suspect something more sinister tbh. something not working 100%, like the maf, or even the egr valvebein stuck open or shut. these can both sap bhp and not always give any warnings either as it may still be within the comps tollerances
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Re: Post remap advice

We seem to be getting away from my original point.

I don't have a problem with what was done on the day, I'm looking for solutions as to why there was such a big difference between Peter's and my results and what (if any) problems there may be with my car
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Re: Post remap advice

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We seem to be getting away from my original point.

I don't have a problem with what was done on the day, I'm looking for solutions as to why there was such a big difference between Peter's and my results and what (if any) problems there may be with my car
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Re: Post remap advice

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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
From what I have heard it was Red Dot that actually wrote the generic maps that were sold on to other remappers, some of which are probably still being used today, although no doubt Red Dot will have improved them further over the years.

What I meant by 'generic', was that the map is not custom to the car. You get a 'pre' rolling road, the map is put on, you get a 'post' rolling road to show the improvement, you pays your money and leaves. But a true custom map would be to then tweak it after viewing the second rolling road, try and smooth the curve a bit, bring in the torque earlier and maintain it longer, with fuelling adjustments. Then possibly even a second tweak after a third rolling road. Obviously that will cost a lot more though, as it will take a lot more time.
When I visited with my 2.4 (albeit on a quiet weekday in October) I walked in, explained what I wanted to achieve and Augusto went off to play. Got a before and after print but know that more runs were done and he took nearly 2 hours of playing. Suspect if there were a few of you on the day he wasn't in a position to spend so much time on each car. For the record my 2.4 was putting out 185bhp vs 200 claimed and afterwards showed 225bhp - almost bang on the 20% increase claimed.

If the OP's unhappy with the outcome suspect that Red Dot hold the answers. If they can't say then I wouldn't expect anyone else on here to be able to.
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