147FL engine swap, to have a "147GT" - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Lightbulb 147FL engine swap, to have a "147GT"

Hi!

I had to search it, but no found any threads about this...

So..anyone had to do V6 engine swap in facelifted 147?
We talk about this with other Alfa owners and with my Alfa mechaniker too here by us in Hungary, because the 2.0TS engine is less powerful for the relative heavy chassie nowdays and also not too realible as all TS are, the 3.2 GTA car is rare and veeery expensive car and has 3 doors only, and it is a big jump in power, between 155->250BHP is nothing in power as stock by Alfa
Why the hell is not this as standard by the Alfa in a 147?
VAG had 2.3 VR5 and 2.8 VR6 too in the mk4 Golf… and in mk5 also can get something around ~180-200BHPs
Just because many 147FL cars with 1.6 engines are here with defected 1.6 TS engine (crankshaft bearing problem due oil), so the car to build it to a V6 is relative "cheap" available, and this way even possible to have 5 doors for an better daily useage
so idea was 1.6 TS engine jumps out, and 2.5 V6 jumps in...


So what should change for this? And from what, 156 or 166 should be the better donor (2.5)?



I prefer this setup: 2.5 V6 24v engine from 156FL, with 3.0-3.2 intake, ~90mm TB, 6speed manual + Quaife LSD, Eibach ARB kit, Eibach lowering kit, 17" TI wheels, 3.0 Brembo big brakes from 166... revvy NA V6 engine, with great sound and well enough power with 5 doors
(some says the almost same, but with the 3.0 litre V6 166 engine)
So what need to change? engine, gearbox, engine ECU, enginebay wirings is OK...and what else?

plz input :P


The other idea were is the 1.8TBi engine, because its lighter, and has the same power and easy to upgrade to 220-230BHP too, but it is rare as fcuk here

Another possible idea was the 2.4 20v petrol engine from the Stilo Abarth 170BHP, 230Nm… (2.4 R5 20v vs 2.5 V6 24v: 2446ccm vs 2492ccm) it is much cheaper, a complete car can get for 1000EUR or even less, and even can to boost it with some pressure: turbo ready forged pistons and H beam 4340 CrMo conrods are available for this engine too, with 166 2.4 10v JTD or 1.9 16v JTDm gearbox with LSD

for diesel fans the 2.4 20v diesel was also an idea, with the 156 2.4 type head




Last edited by hobizoli; 06-07-18 at 18:58.
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All those options are doable. 2.5 V6 or 2.4 diesel. You probably have to go aftermarket ECU as the key code box will be tricky to match up. If you can choose your donor, go for 156 - the engine mounts, side shafts, etc will work plug / play as long as you can take the whole sub-assembly. The Stilo engine might need custom engine mounts. But you are seemingly not scared of fabrication.
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Originally Posted by hobizoli View Post
Hi!

I had to search it, but no found any threads about this...

So..anyone had to do V6 engine swap in facelifted 147?
We talk about this with other Alfa owners and with my Alfa mechaniker too here by us in Hungary, because the 2.0TS engine is less powerful for the relative heavy chassie nowdays and also not too realible as all TS are, the 3.2 GTA car is rare and veeery expensive car and has 3 doors only, and it is a big jump in power, between 155->250BHP is nothing in power as stock by Alfa
Why the hell is not this as standard by the Alfa in a 147?
VAG had 2.3 VR5 and 2.8 VR6 too in the mk4 Golf… and in mk5 also can get something around ~180-200BHPs
Just because many 147FL cars with 1.6 engines are here with defected 1.6 TS engine (crankshaft bearing problem due oil), so the car to build it to a V6 is relative "cheap" available, and this way even possible to have 5 doors for an better daily useage
so idea was 1.6 TS engine jumps out, and 2.5 V6 jumps in...


So what should change for this? And from what, 156 or 166 should be the better donor (2.5)?



I prefer this setup: 2.5 V6 24v engine from 156FL, with 3.0-3.2 intake, ~90mm TB, 6speed manual + Quaife LSD, Eibach ARB kit, Eibach lowering kit, 17" TI wheels, 3.0 Brembo big brakes from 166... revvy NA V6 engine, with great sound and well enough power with 5 doors
(some says the almost same, but with the 3.0 litre V6 166 engine)
So what need to change? engine, gearbox, engine ECU, enginebay wirings is OK...and what else?

plz input :P


The other idea were is the 1.8TBi engine, because its lighter, and has the same power and easy to upgrade to 220-230BHP too, but it is rare as fcuk here

Another possible idea was the 2.4 20v petrol engine from the Stilo Abarth 170BHP, 230Nm… (2.4 R5 20v vs 2.5 V6 24v: 2446ccm vs 2492ccm) it is much cheaper, a complete car can get for 1000EUR or even less, and even can to boost it with some pressure: turbo ready forged pistons and H beam 4340 CrMo conrods are available for this engine too, with 166 2.4 10v JTD or 1.9 16v JTDm gearbox with LSD

for diesel fans the 2.4 20v diesel was also an idea, with the 156 2.4 type head



if going all the way for a V6 use the 3.0 litre as it will pay out in the end with increased torque. engine, gearbox,driveahsfts, engine ECU, enginebay wiring would need work .. not sure on fuel pump and brakes suspension again not sure on throttle pedal or if the 147 has abs on 1.6 model. but could be a load of work

but the fiat engine is done quite a lot as the turbo makes power easy to find.. think theres a thread somewhere on the forum but Pud237 on here has done one iirc
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Theres a thread about a GT with a 2.4 from a 156 here :

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tuni...o-2-4-20v.html (EDC16C8_Alfa GT 1.9 to 2.4 20V)

The fuel gauge and rev counter still arent working though, using a 2.5 youd have the same problems as this guy as the 2.5 was never fitted to a CAN Bus car (pretty certain the 166 wasnt CAN Bus).

And some guy in Sicily put a 2.4 from a 159 in his 147, theres a thread on that here :

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa...dmjet-20v.html (147 2.4 JTDmjet 20V)

As he used a 159 2.4 he had to cut the bodyshell as the block is different.
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All much easier to do in a 156 than in a 147 (or GT) thanks to no-Canbus in the 156.
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Never thought I say this but if I was doing something like that turbocharging a TS is the route I'd moat likely go. I think it would be cheaper and possibly easier. Engine parts would have to be changed and at least when it is done it would largely be a new engine.

I've only seen 1.6 and 2.0 engines being converted but I always thought the 1.8 would be the best block as it has no balance shafts and I think the crank bearings are the same as 2.0 (but I could be wrong as I've never bothered to check).

Anyway, I thought the Twinspark engine only goes wrong due to cheap parts/cheap oil/not changing the cam belt.
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A 1.8 into a 147 has been done.
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if I was you I would definitely pick 3.0L over the 2.5L. The main advantage is low down torque. besides that 3.0L can make healty 240hp and 300nm with little mods. almost 3.2 GTA territhory
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Im not sure if putting a V6 into the 147 is the right way to go. While im a big fan of the busso V6, nearly every comparison of the V6 Vs Twinsparks in the GTV, GT etc.. mention that the big heavy lump in the front compromises the handling. The 2.4 engine from the stilo might split the difference, but fitting a 5-wide engine is going to be a huge chore, and personally, i dont feel like that engine is special enough for an alfa, just like the 1.8 fitted to the barchetta and punto HGT, it is a pratola serra engine without any mods, while the alfa versions all got bespoke twinspark heads (or later JTS heads). Taking the pratola serra base, the 2.4 is the "there is no replacement for displacement" approach to power, not something alfa is known for.

Autodelta meanwhile offers both turbo and supercharger conversions on both the 1.6 and 2.0 TS in the 147, offering 180 (in the 1.6) or 210-230hp (on the 2.0).

As for why alfa didnt, keep in mind the 147 was just the basic family hatch at the time. The non performance versions of the VW golf at the time topped out at a massive 125hp. To match the 150hp from the 147 2.0, you needed either a GTI or the 2.3 V5 engine. When you take performance versions into account, not even the R32 golf matches the 147 GTA for power and speed, while costing more.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitorio View Post
Im not sure if putting a V6 into the 147 is the right way to go. While im a big fan of the busso V6, nearly every comparison of the V6 Vs Twinsparks in the GTV, GT etc.. mention that the big heavy lump in the front compromises the handling.
People say that to try sound clever - the V6 with 6 speed box is a total of 70kg heavier, sure the V6 understeers a bit more than the 2.0, but that is because it has more power as well. The question is how often do one push a car that much that that matters? At my local race track I did a 1:19.2 in my 156 SW with 3.0 motor with all the OEM weight in (1320kg + fuel, etc) with my 156 2.0 racer striped, rollcaged, etc weighing in at 1080kg just before going on track my record stands at 1:18.0. My SW is my daily drive so I will never push it as hard as the racer and the 1:18.0 was 3 years later with much more seat time. I love my V6 as a cruiser and sending it trough twisty passes - it has torque for days - any gear is a good gear. The TS you have to push to enjoy.


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Autodelta meanwhile offers both turbo and supercharger conversions on both the 1.6 and 2.0 TS in the 147, offering 180 (in the 1.6) or 210-230hp (on the 2.0).
Now this I whole heatedly agree with... I put a turbo on my 156 2.0 racer and it is 3kw up on my 156 3.0 It makes the right noises and the turbo power surge does make the drive a hoot
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Now this I whole heatedly agree with... I put a turbo on my 156 2.0 racer and it is 3kw up on my 156 3.0 It makes the right noises and the turbo power surge does make the drive a hoot[/QUOTE]

And a 3.0 litre or 3.2 with throttle bodies and cams etc would make even better noises lol.
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Originally Posted by maxiboy wales View Post
And a 3.0 litre or 3.2 with throttle bodies and cams etc would make even better noises lol.
This is also true - the other morning I went to pick up a friend , before I could send him a text that I am at his place, he sent me a text saying he is on his way down. V6 doorbell for the win
It also generally works at my parents place that they open the gate just as I arrive
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This is also true - the other morning I went to pick up a friend , before I could send him a text that I am at his place, he sent me a text saying he is on his way down. V6 doorbell for the win
It also generally works at my parents place that they open the gate just as I arrive
Same here gates open as i arrive for work lol...

hoping to get throttle bodies set up designed and built this summer
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Originally Posted by vitorio View Post
Im not sure if putting a V6 into the 147 is the right way to go. While im a big fan of the busso V6, nearly every comparison of the V6 Vs Twinsparks in the GTV, GT etc.. mention that the big heavy lump in the front compromises the handling. The 2.4 engine from the stilo might split the difference, but fitting a 5-wide engine is going to be a huge chore, and personally, i dont feel like that engine is special enough for an alfa, just like the 1.8 fitted to the barchetta and punto HGT, it is a pratola serra engine without any mods, while the alfa versions all got bespoke twinspark heads (or later JTS heads). Taking the pratola serra base, the 2.4 is the "there is no replacement for displacement" approach to power, not something alfa is known for.

Autodelta meanwhile offers both turbo and supercharger conversions on both the 1.6 and 2.0 TS in the 147, offering 180 (in the 1.6) or 210-230hp (on the 2.0).

As for why alfa didnt, keep in mind the 147 was just the basic family hatch at the time. The non performance versions of the VW golf at the time topped out at a massive 125hp. To match the 150hp from the 147 2.0, you needed either a GTI or the 2.3 V5 engine. When you take performance versions into account, not even the R32 golf matches the 147 GTA for power and speed, while costing more.

that Autodelta Supercharger kit fot the TS engine is ~5kGBP in price...
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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
All much easier to do in a 156 than in a 147 (or GT) thanks to no-Canbus in the 156.
why cant to do it with CANbus?
not compatible versions used?
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hm-hm... this thread was almost forgotten...

we do some talks with my friends here in the past months, and found out the new way is to turbocharge a 1.6TS engine, to get a GTA killer
car is arond 150-160kgs lighter, as an 147GTA or around 200-220kgs as the 156GTA so no needed to this to have so much engine power to as a GTA has
why 1.6?
because its half ccm of a GTA's Busso engine, and it is cheap, has many of them almost anywhere, has much less weight on the front axle

as we saw by my friends RR pad, on just 0.9bar boost with TD04 turbo in Mazda "Miata" NA/NB MX5 basicly 1.6 16v 115HP engine (at 5600rpm)
it pushes around 232BHPs at just 6200rpms and 280Nm torque at 4600rpms
my friend has a RR, he made here 5-6 cars from that is the last half year only from this, and all works fine, even on trackdays
it's engine was unmodyfied standard stock MX5 engines, with CR 9:1
turbo spools in in that from ~3200rpms, has the full boost at 4300rpms, its OK, and hold the boost pressure from that in the entire rpm range up to the rev limiter
torque falls down, but not too much, from the 280Nm at 4600rpms just to 240Nm at 7000rpms at the revlimiter
we talk about on 1.1-1.2bar max boost in the 1.6Turbo 147, and ~7000rpms max power as the archievable goal, with ~7500rpm peak rev limiter
the possibile power is there 270-280HPs, and 320-330Nm max torque as we think

the engine:
for as base new bearings, new gaskets etc evrywhere ofcourse, new oil pump
2.0TS intake cam - it gives more valve lift there as the 1.6, assymetric lift is better on turbo engines
Pipercams or Catcams has reprofiled or blank cams for it too, but no needed i think
TS, VVT delete from it using a standard 113HP 182type Bravo GT 1.8 head with one spark plug only
fire ring mod in the head and the bottom to keep the headgasket failure off

the main question is, the standard conrods and pistons are strong enough or not just because it is expensive to get Hbeam type 4340 CrMo conrods and forged pistons for it, if they not really needed - they costs us around 1000-1200EURs additionally
i came from a Fiat PuntoGT tuning, but in that "FiatSOHC" type engine, the conrod is almost bulletproof, piston in them is also not_forged type, and was pushed well over 1.6bars too, just very-very few tuners buy them the 4340 CrMo Hbream rods and forged pistons
we made cars over 280HP too from 1.4litre, with standard conrod, was NEVER EVER any problem with it in 8-10years
if mappng was not tooooo aggressive in spark advance and the AFR was OK, was no problem with the standard pistons
the Fiat Coupe's 5cyl engine is just a 1.6TS with 1 more cylinder, it has the same bore and stroke
main bearing can be diffent size there so maybe not an option the get 4 conrods from that

the Euro2 or Euro3 type standard piston - one of them is shorter a little bit over the pin as i remember, maybe the old type, but really dont know that now
i saw form them datas years ago, but sadly i not saved them on my PC
this is for lower the CR to 8.8:1 or 9.3:1 from 10+
the PuntoGT's engine also didnt had forged parts as standard and in overboost mode was boosted as factory on 1.35bar(!) with 9:1 CR with the GT3 type 176B6000 engine, and we pushed them just over 2.0bar pressure too after some mods to lower the CR in them, with stock conrods and pistons
it was very easy to tune them over 220-230HPs too on 1.3bar, with just basic air and fuel support upgrades, but is was just 1.4litre and "bad" SOHC 8v reverseflow head, crossflow type heads needs much less pressure to archive the same airflow

intercooler size - same with an tuned 1.9 JTD
76mm downpipe free flow 2.5" exhaust, with 2-3 straight through type mufflers to lower the noise as possible

clutch a stage2 diesel kevlar plate is enough, no need to have higher torque as 400Nm i think, the engine can rev here much higher with that shorter stroke
gearbox - torsen diff add
i dont know the 166 2.0TS 6speed box is easy interchangable or not, ot possible with other 6speed boxes is OK, the 2.5 V6 or the 1.9 16v
need the 6speed because has more torque on wheels from engine torque, with it's shorter gearing
years ago a guy told me, he changed on many preFL 2.0 147 the standard 5speed box, to that 166 6speed type, but i never asked him it was 1:1 interchangeable, or need to modify something too

engine management - some piggyback ECU with onboard MAP, for example ECUMaster or something else, and hold CANbus as standard working in the car

WBO2 kit - thats needed, its not a question
AC pump, chinese copy of the Walbro, or real Walbro, but the chinese type was also OK 6+ years with fully 100% E85 usage
extra 4 injectors into the older style metal intake wich was with LPG system installed
IMHO 4 additional 300ccm/min injector, wich is controlled by the piggyback for the fueling is enough
(can someone tell me the standard 1.6-1.8-2.0TS engine's injector flow rates?)

others:
sleeper look engine bay, really, as a fully stock 1.6 if opened
oilcooler sandwich with thermostat and 19row cooler
Eibach ARB and lowering kit with new Bilstein shocks or Weitec/KW full sport kit
330mm Brembo brakes from 166/156CW to the front axle an the 270mm from GT to the rear axle

...and on the end same job was on way what is the engine is an 1.8litre 1747ccm, and not an 1.6, get the whole engine from that BravoGT, not just the head from it




maybe better to open a new thread for this?

Last edited by hobizoli; 1 Week Ago at 23:26. Reason: some misstypes
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....IMHO this forum is dead.
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The forum ? I think you mean the idea ?
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The forum ? I think you mean the idea ?
i cant belive that after 20 years as long as this engine is produced, no one had done an documented turbocharged engine from this 1.6/1.8/2.0 TS type of the Pratola Serra type engines, and no one can any informations about how it could be made
its very funny.... or not, its sadly
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i cant belive that after 20 years as long as this engine is produced, no one had done an documented turbocharged engine from this 1.6/1.8/2.0 TS type of the Pratola Serra type engines, and no one can any informations about how it could be made
its very funny.... or not, its sadly
i am sorry but you are wrong, there have been a few turbo conversions of the Pratola Serra petrols, Jano at Autodelta in London used to sell them, plus there have been some one off conversions, you could probably find threads or metions of them on this forum if you searched.

Also, it has to be said, if a fellow Alfa enthusiast posts that he wishes to turbo his car, its not really very nice to mock them.
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Like I have done a 2.0TS turbo conversion and posted most of it on my "phakisa as a newbie" thread in South Africa lounge. You can read it. It makes 3.2 GTA power on 0.4 bar boost.
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Originally Posted by typos1 View Post
i am sorry but you are wrong, there have been a few turbo conversions of the Pratola Serra petrols, Jano at Autodelta in London used to sell them, plus there have been some one off conversions, you could probably find threads or metions of them on this forum if you searched.

Also, it has to be said, if a fellow Alfa enthusiast posts that he wishes to turbo his car, its not really very nice to mock them.
probably... but found nothing wich is working now, with documented RR mearsure or anything, how is it possiblie to made
on youtube is also almost nothing just 3-4 in car video after the engine running, but not a car on a drag event and nothing else
and the engine is almost 25 years old now

we not want to buy one turbokit from Autodelta, wich is 5-6000GBP, the goal is to made one well, like with other FIAT engines is possibile


but as i see, if i want to drive a turbocharged petrol Alfa, better to buy a used Giuletta QV

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probably... but found nothing wich is working now, with documented RR mearsure or anything, how is it possiblie to made
on youtube is also almost nothing just 3-4 in car video after the engine running, but not a car on a drag event and nothing else
and the engine is almost 25 years old now

we not want to buy one turbokit from Autodelta, wich is 5-6000GBP, the goal is to made one well, like with other FIAT engines is possibile


but as i see, if i want to drive a turbocharged petrol Alfa, better to buy a used Giuletta QV

See the poster above me !!

Oh and by the way the Giulietta QV, the 159/Brera TBi, the Delta 3 TBi and the 4C ALL use turboed Pratola Serra petrol engines.
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The link to the post in my thread where the turbo build starts.

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/sout...l#post10683065 (Modern Trofeo @ Phakisa as a Newbie)
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