Maybe one more turbo conversion - 2.0 Twin Spark CF3 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 35 Old 18-02-18 Thread Starter
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Maybe one more turbo conversion - 2.0 Twin Spark CF3

Hi everyone, I'm thinking about this project for a while.

My first question is: Which is the best setup for 0.5bar pressure?

I want to build a faster and reliable 147TS for daily use. From the previous research I came to this setup, but I still have a lot of dilemmas and questions...To be continued

Before everything for start i will replace: (new bearings for crankshaft, bearings for conrods, new piston rings, new clutch)
-Stock ECU (remap)
-Compression ratio 10:1
- CF2 T.S. alloy intake manifold with stock 2.0 CF3 throttle body.
- Polished exhaust ports on cylinder head.
- Siemens injectors 9179379 312cc/min from Volvo T4 engine (stock T.S. injectors are 179cc/min).
- Exhaust manifold from 1.9 JTDm 16v (I bought it from Alfa GT)
- Turbo, well I'm considering between turbo from 1750Tbi (straight fit on T.S. head with Tbi exhaust manifold), K04, turbo from Volvo T5 (i didn't find info from which 2.0 or 2.4. and from which model),and Iveco Daily 2.8 Turbo Garrett GT20.
- Stock Intercooler from Alfa 147 1.9 JTD.

Now, questions . If you can help me please put the number of question before answer.

1. Which is the easiest way to fit CF3 throttle body on CF2 intake manifold?
For now I see two options:
- making or buying some adapter
- cutting some parts from intake manifold

2. Do I need colder spark plugs? One number colder or two?

3. Are the pumps on ts and jtd the same? If the pump on the jtd makes a higher oil pressure it could be good for a turbo setup.

4. Air box from jtd 147 or KN filter?

5. Should I put AFM before air box or before throttle body?

6. Do I need blow off valve? Turbo will probably have waste gate.

7. Which turbo is easiest to fit on jtdm 16v exhaust manifold? Option with fitting modified downpipe with catalytic form jtdm would be great.

8. Do I need oil cooler? I will use car in normal conditions, not for race.

9. Some tutorial for how to install oil pressure sensor with gauge on T.S.? Oil temp. also could be fine.

10. Do I need stronger clutch than stock for approx 200-210HP? Not even sure how much HP i will get from 0.5bar.

11. Do I need stronger fuel pump?

12. Is there any benefits if I fit alloy fuel rail from CF2 with two flow directions. Currently is one direction flow with pressure regulator in fuel tank.

13. Oil feed for turbo:
-To take oil from cyl. head?
-Or to make external small tank with electric oil pump. (small el. oil pump prom Peugeot scooters)

14. Is there going to be some problems if I fit wires from second lambda to first lambda? So, one lambda will give data for both.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Petar_ View Post
Hi everyone, I'm thinking about this project for a while.

My first question is: Which is the best setup for 0.5bar pressure?

I want to build a faster and reliable 147TS for daily use. From the previous research I came to this setup, but I still have a lot of dilemmas and questions...To be continued

Before everything for start i will replace: (new bearings for crankshaft, bearings for conrods, new piston rings, new clutch)
-Stock ECU (remap)
-Compression ratio 10:1
- CF2 T.S. alloy intake manifold with stock 2.0 CF3 throttle body.
- Polished exhaust ports on cylinder head.
- Siemens injectors 9179379 312cc/min from Volvo T4 engine (stock T.S. injectors are 179cc/min).
- Exhaust manifold from 1.9 JTDm 16v (I bought it from Alfa GT)
- Turbo, well I'm considering between turbo from 1750Tbi (straight fit on T.S. head with Tbi exhaust manifold), K04, turbo from Volvo T5 (i didn't find info from which 2.0 or 2.4. and from which model),and Iveco Daily 2.8 Turbo Garrett GT20.
- Stock Intercooler from Alfa 147 1.9 JTD.
A have a lot of those items in my turbo build:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/south...l#post10683065


1. 0.5 bar boost could work on either intake manifold - I would keep whatever is on at the moment. At least keep the throttle you have now - I am quite sure it will fit with little effort.

2. One number colder on the spark plugs

3. TS oil pump is fine - be sure to restrict the flow to the turbo.

4. Circular airboxes flow better. 156 V6 also option.

5. Best to keep MAF just after airbox (OEM position).

6. Volvo T5 turbo has both re-circulation BoV and wastegate built in. If you get other turbo, best is re-circulation (from before throttle to before turbo (after MAF, not before MAF)

7. No after market turbo will fit straight on - there will be some rework.

8. OEM heat exchange oil cooler will work OK for street.

9. https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...3&d=1400842765

10. I got 146 wheel kW from 0.5bar. Std clutch will hold fine

11. OEM fuel pump should be OK, unless you filter is clogged - mine was clogged.

12. Keep fuel rail OEM.

13. Oil feed for turbo: See my thread link above.

14. Keep OEM lambdas as is, don't cross feed signals. If you want to go big, get a Zeitronics wideband lambda that can emulate narrowband lambda to ECU
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(Post Link) post #4 of 35 Old 23-02-18 Thread Starter
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@Gertie thank you very much!

1. I will keep stock 2.0T.S. throttle body.

3. Ok i will dril two 1mm holes in banjo bolt, like you do. My idea is to take oil feed from cyl. head.
I will also remove balancer shafts. i'm still curious, is the 1.9 jtd oil pump same like T.S. oil pump. On pics they looks the same.

4. For me it is easiest to just buy IC from 147jtdm, it should be bolt on job. I will try to use hose from 147jtdm from IC to throttle body.

5. A Volvo TD04HL-16T - from the 2.4L S60/S70/V70 T5's looks like realy hard to fit on 147jtdm 16v exhaust manifold. Maybe it will be easier to fit this turbo on OEM T.S. exhaust manifold.
The Garrett GT20 from Iveco Daily 2.8 (Garrett GT20 - GT2056 ? 55 TRIM - 260 HP ? Turbocharger Specs) looks much more similar to GT1749V which is stock on 147 JTDm 150HP. Only problem is that this turbo does not have water cooling.

8. I was thinking about installing an OEM cooler from 1.9 jtdm.

11. I also had a problem with clogged filter in fuel pump. Just replaced fuel pump housing. Now i have to find out where i could fit external fuel filter.

14. So, I should fit both lambdas on same pipe, one next to the other?
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Petrol motors move a lot more air than diesels. When it comes to turbo sizing, diesel turbines tend to be very small. For a 2.0TS you have to go at least gt25. Gt20 will spool at low revs, but will start choking the exhaust in high rpm. The 56 compressor side is right.

If the turbo does not have water cooling, it is designed to work without it, don't let that be a limiting factor.

Fit the lambdas +/- OEM distance down stream in the exhaust. Both on same pipe.
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better buy k03 from alfa tbi 159 and it fit without problems on your twinspark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acab View Post
better buy k03 from alfa tbi 159 and it fit without problems on your twinspark
Acab has a good point. If you are looking for a easy fit... The 1750 tbi motor has the same exhaust design. Buy the exhaust manifold with turbo attached. The turbo design for the 1.8 is a good starting point.
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(Post Link) post #8 of 35 Old 28-02-18 Thread Starter
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I found two used turbos from 159 and the price for one is 300-350EUR. I didn't find turbo from giulietta 1750 :/

I will borrow K03s turbo (Audi 1.8T) from my friend to see how hard it will be to fit it to JTDm exhaust manifold. If there is possibility to fit K03 then i will buy Borg Warner K04 from Audi TT 225HP (these two turbos have a pretty similar shape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by acab View Post
better buy k03 from alfa tbi 159 and it fit without problems on your twinspark
Can you please tell me dimensions of inducer and exducer of K03 from 159 TBi?

What is the difference between turbo on 159 1750Tbi and on Giulietta 1750TBi?
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Many questions.
Just do it or not
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I found this info. for VW "K0" turbos.
Source: VWVortex.com - K03, k03s, k04 specs

Ko3 - 97-2000

COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 33.6mm
Exducer: 46mm
Tip height: 3.7mm

TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11

Ko3S - 01+

COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 38mm
Exducer: 51mm
Tip height: 4.4mm

TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11

Ko4-015


COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 35mm
Exducer: 50mm
Tip height: 3.7mm

TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 42mm
Tip height: 6.4mm
Blades: 11
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jtd manifold is not straight fit on twin spark head, same problem is with K03 from TBi. Engine oil level dipstick is making a problem. I will try to remove some iron between two middle pipes in manifold and make space for oil dipstick.

TS manifold
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...838121&thumb=1
jtdm manifold
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...838161&thumb=1
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File Type: jpg jtdm16v.jpg (77.1 KB, 34 views)
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The oil dip stick tube is rather bendable if you are careful with it. You should be able to get a good fit. Or get a jtd dip stick tube. Length is important, not shape.
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Just bend oil dip and thats all
or change oil sump
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(Post Link) post #14 of 35 Old 12-03-18 Thread Starter
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Tnx for advice, I will try мy way. I don't want to search oil dipstick every time when I lift up the hood, especially when turbo is hot.
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I did what I want I still didn't try to mount it on cyl. head. One more potential problem is welding this molded iron manifold (for turbo flange). I was in one exhaust service and they told me that it can be welded but it is not the happiest solution (it won't be quality like OEM). So I'm little bit afraid if some peace of metal gets in the turbo :/

I still can't find any K04 form 1750TBi, so for now solution is TD04HL-16t.
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That is good going Yeah the manifold can be cut and welded, no problem, go for it.
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Unfortunately I did not manage to find either td04hl-16t in good condition. I found only two td04hl-16t in the whole country and both have cracks in hot side of housing. :/
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Awesome work. I have a K03 on its way to me.... hoping to do the same with the manifold that you have.
Keep the faith!
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Thank you, this is still beginning. Mounting turbo and ECU mapping are the hardest part of the conversion.

K03 is small for 2.0T.S., for 1.6T.S. it would be fine. Even in that case I would go with Borg Warner K03s turbo (Audi TT MK1 179HP).
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On 2.0Twin Spark?
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(Post Link) post #22 of 35 Old 13-04-18 Thread Starter
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I compared two pistons from 2.0TS CF2 VS. CF3 83mm

CF2 left CF3 right

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...847626&thumb=1

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...847634&thumb=1

CF2 piston:

Distance between top of the piston and the dish: 3.184mm
Piston Weight: 345g (not accurate, piston is damaged)
Dish wall ticknes: 6.486mm
Piston height overall: 56.044mm
Dish volume: 10.30cc (approx)

CF3 piston:

Distance between top of the piston and the dish: 3.444mm
Piston Weight: 302g
Dish wall ticknes: 6.266mm
Piston height overall: 53.354mm
Dish volume: 11.70cc (approx)



I will share my experience with dish volume measuring. There is problem with valve pockets in pistons so you can't measure volume of dish if you don't close sides of pockets. For this i used oil seal from oil filter from Nissan sr20 engine 65mm inner diameter.
For measuring you also need:

- glass 13x13x0.6 with hole in the middle (first i used plexiglass, but for some reason it started to cracking when there is alcohol on it . Glass is cheaper and more stable solution )
-Vaseline
-i used 100 units insulin syringe (100units = 1ccm)
-Alcohol for filling the dish

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...847658&thumb=1

Why did I do this?

Well, I'm searching for best way to lower compression ratio in case that i want to go with higher turbo boost than 0.5bar. For now I think that is totally safe to remove 0.3-0.5mm from bottom of the dish.
CF2 piston is more massive and have bigger surface which will definitely help in faster heat exchange between oil and side walls of cylinder.
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offtopic

Does somebody know for some online shop where I can order only these clips for gear cables?
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how can be remapping the ECU for higher boost levels?
what software and hardware parts need to be mapped it realtime?


for 2.0TS engine on web also can get easy Hbeam conrods and forged turbo pistons
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Stock ECU uses mass air flow and throttle position for mapping, there is no manifold pressure sensor. You'll have to become a bit creative to get it to handle higher boost levels.

Which is why it is a good idea to use a fueling ECU that run on MAP. The stock ECU ignition is perfect and has knock detection.

Last edited by Gertie; 16-09-18 at 07:07.
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