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(Post Link) post #1 of 30 Old 15-08-17 Thread Starter
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SOI maps on JTD 8V EDC15C7 and EOI

Hi,
I am just wondering if I do things in right way;

In EDC15C7 for JTD 8V 115HP engine there are two SOI maps; with pilot injection (20x20) and without pilot (16x16).
As I think, both maps share X and Y axes, however, as this map without pilot is smaller it obviously use only first 16 values for X and Y.

So, that map have 55mm3 max of IQ, and as this map is without pilot, actually this map is really responsible for hard acceleration so it should be tuned.

For values of IQ higher of 55mm3, ECU uses values same as 55mm3. So, when tuning for desired EOI, there is mismatch for higher values of IQ and that cannot be done with this map without changing values for IQ. But, as this values are shared with SOI map with pilot, values at that map also should be changed.

So, i corrected values for IQ like on pitcures. Is this OK approach or it should be done in some another way?
In my mappack this axes are shared also with pilot injection, but this map does not need to be changed.

With this SOI maps I have EOI like on picture tuned_eoi.jpg (railP is increased to 1400)
I also attached stock EOI values (up to 60mm3 as this is max IQ in stock)

Is that tuned EOI OK or should I advance it more?


Thanks!
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File Type: jpg soi_w_pilot.JPG (96.6 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg soi_wo_pilot.JPG (68.7 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg tuned_eoi.JPG (35.4 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg stock_eoi.JPG (27.4 KB, 25 views)
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Hello,

About modify axis be carefully because it could be used in others maps.

Other SOI limiters deactivate pilot according to temps, rpm or IQ.

That EOI looks ok not problem.

Last edited by ceecao; 16-08-17 at 14:44.
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(Post Link) post #3 of 30 Old 16-08-17 Thread Starter
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Hi,

I tried modifications of IQ axe but it looks like that what I modified is wrong axe because with modification I have too much early EOI.
Can someone confirm what axes are for SOI1 and SOI2 in my ECU file (remove .pdf extension)

I thought that this is true:

7316E - SOI with pilot 20x20
746B0 - SOI without pilot 16x16
73146 - IQ in mm3 for both maps
7311A - RPM for both maps

But obviously not.

Thanks!
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File Type: pdf 491-061_ORG.zip.pdf (154.4 KB, 22 views)
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it looks like ok. I have doubts about it anyway.

There are other axis at 71Axx address that could be too (those should be used into others temp-atm limiters).

Better if you log start main inj with stock soi and after with mod.
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(Post Link) post #5 of 30 Old 16-08-17 Thread Starter
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I did log SOI before modifying 73146 and after, and as it looks like, this is definitivly not IQ for SOI.
For example, at 4000 RPM and 63 mm3 log says i have SOI 21,65 deg and 775us of duration. That is 2,5 deg BTDC EOI what is too early.
Look at SOI map that I attached, last two columns are modified from 55,55 to 55,75 and for IQ=75 there is 21,23 deg for 4000 RPM and 17,79 deg for IQ=55
Ecu obviously use last column for SOI as in original this is 55mm3 column and not 75. So for 63mm3 it uses last value of 21,23 deg and not 19,16 deg that should use if modified IQ axe is used.
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Well. My doubt is real lol.

Then you should test other axis where I said, Damos is erroneus then with this.

PD: I'm thinking if "SOI with" and "without" pilot maps could be erroneus too, without 20x20 and with 16x16, you can test it too.

Last edited by ceecao; 16-08-17 at 17:54.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike_156 View Post
Hi,
In EDC15C7 for JTD 8V 115HP engine there are two SOI maps; with pilot injection (20x20) and without pilot (16x16).
As I think, both maps share X and Y axes, however, as this map without pilot is smaller it obviously use only first 16 values for X and Y.
This assumption is wrong...
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(Post Link) post #8 of 30 Old 16-08-17 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TribesMan View Post
This assumption is wrong...
Well...yes, it obviously is.
Would you be kind and tell me where are right axes for this maps?
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It can be iq-71AFA and rpm-71A56 for "without" and others maps after check ECUs with similar structure.

For "with" it should be actual 73146.
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(Post Link) post #10 of 30 Old 16-08-17 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceecao View Post
It can be iq-71AFA and rpm-71A56 for "without" and others maps after check ECUs with similar structure.

For "with" it should be actual 73146.
Thanks, I thought about that 71AFA that can be it but I wasn't sure. That axe in my map pack is also for some other map, on picture. So it look safe to modify last two columns to 55 and 75, but I'm not sure if this axe is used by some other maps. In my map pack is not used anymore else.
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Problem Damos is not perfect so it's always risky.

According to my info that iq-axis could be into next maps:

- Inj start of pilot : No problem if last two iq is tweaked (data is the same)
- Inj min AD_VE uS : No problem idem
- Inj correct FAK VE : Yes but, minor change, It should be OK
- Inj pilot inj Mepilot : No problem idem
- Inj correct KF Dyn : No problem idem

To modify last two iq should be "secure" if info is true.
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(Post Link) post #12 of 30 Old 17-08-17 Thread Starter
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Thanks!
In meantime I also found another damos for similar engine and that x-axe is used in same maps that you said.
I'm a little busy next few days so I will try this later.
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(Post Link) post #13 of 30 Old 18-08-17 Thread Starter
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I found some time and put new map in car. Now it seems that EOI is just like I requested in maps...so this is a right IQ axe. Thanx a lot !
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Good
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(Post Link) post #15 of 30 Old 04-09-17 Thread Starter
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Hi again.
Today I finally drive car alone (without family) so I push it a little harder. Here are few logs with AlfaOBD Android software via bluetooth OBD2 dongle. I know it is a little slow, time difference between values are about 280ms but it can be usefull to see if it is right.
Acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear is ok in all RPM range, but in 3rd and higher gears over 3500 RPMs it feels like it not pulling as it should. Engine is also louder at highers revs and sounds like whistling (I think that is actually sound of combustion).
Can someone look at this logs and tell me is this injection time OK?
There is also strange MAF reading over 3800 RPMs...it is same value for few seconds and up to 4300 RPMs
I've also corrected DOI table because of invalid stock values in map for >60mm3 an over 1350 bar fuel pressure (in remap I request 1400 bar over 3500 RPMs).
My car is stock, only EGR hardware and software blanked and I don't want to do any other hardware modifications...only software remap to achieve maximum performance that I can.
Maybe some of you experienced tuners can look at my remap and tell me some suggestions (please PM me)?

Thanks!
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File Type: jpg log_25.1-3.JPG (93.3 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg log_25.1-2.JPG (101.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg log_25.1-1.JPG (93.6 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg doi.JPG (79.2 KB, 19 views)
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You have two issues and the same cause: overboost at low revs (2500mb) due to EGR blocked and whistling sound at high revs (3.100rpm), you need to adjust VNT.

Injection looks reasonable at WOT.

I dislake bluetooth for logging anyway, same MAF valours could be false bluetooth reading.
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(Post Link) post #17 of 30 Old 04-09-17 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceecao View Post
You have two issues and the same cause: overboost at low revs (2500mb) due to EGR blocked and whistling sound at high revs (3.100rpm), you need to adjust VNT.

Injection looks reasonable at WOT.

I dislake bluetooth for logging anyway, same MAF valours could be false bluetooth reading.
I did adjusted VNT, but sometimes still overboosts. I think that maybe region that I selected needs to be a little lower...
So, you mean that whistling sound is from closed EGR? But isn't EGR closed also on stock car over 3250 RPMs?
This whistling sound also appears in lower RPMs (2500) in my previous remaps when injection timing was different...so I think that is also IQ timing related.

Yes I know that bluetooth is not so reliable as MES, but the thing is that I'm using my car for every day trip to work when I drive on highway, so it is not practical for me to carry notebook with me and leave it for 9 hour in parked car in the middle of town.
And going to highway specially for logging is also not practical because highway is not near my place...

I remaped my car 4 years ago and from time to time when I got some time I change something in remap, put it in car at evening after work, and test it next day when driving to work and back home.
I'm doing this just for fun and to learn something...and trying to do the best job that it can be done with this engine without hard modifications. I know that this should be done with dyno, PCP and EGT sensors...but that is too "pro" for me. I'm just having fun and keep myself busy with this
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Well, whistling sound is due to pressure change, in your case lost pressure.

Big axis steps like that 52-70 is terrible for VNT adjust, it needs small steps 4-6-8 to tweak better. To fix overboost under 2.500rpm should start log at 1.500rpm, so you will see real turbo boost and inj betweend 2.000-2.500rpm.
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(Post Link) post #19 of 30 Old 05-09-17 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceecao View Post
Well, whistling sound is due to pressure change, in your case lost pressure.

Big axis steps like that 52-70 is terrible for VNT adjust, it needs small steps 4-6-8 to tweak better. To fix overboost under 2.500rpm should start log at 1.500rpm, so you will see real turbo boost and inj betweend 2.000-2.500rpm.
Regarding whistling sound...can you explain what you mean with pressure change/lost pressure...what is really going on and where...and is this dangerous or not?

I allready have spent some time to adjusting VNT because I had some very noticable boost and IQ drop around 2500 RPMs; but in logs and in high gears I don't see overboost anymore (in previous remaps it was...but I lowered VNT to correct that). Now it appears only sometimes and in lower gears. But sure, good suggestion is for doing some more VNT tuning with small steps in axis.

From 2000 to 3750 RPMs I request 2350 mbar boost in high IQ + 50 mbar overboost strategy...so in provided logs there are even lower boost values around 2000 RPMs...and then boost raise, than again a little drop of boost and IQ around 2400-2500 and after that 2600-2700 again raise, this time over 2400 mbar, and after 2900-3000 again a little drop, perhaps because of VE of this engine.

But this boost variations are not so noticable in driving (it pulls very vell up to 3000-3250 RPMs) but after that I have feeling that is not accelerating so well... It feels something like in previous remap where I was searching real axe for SOI 16x16 map; then I modified wrong axe so timing was too advance. But than it was very obvious that something is wrong and engine was very loud and strugling to raise RPMs over 3500rpm.
Now it is not so obvious but I think that some of my previous remaps was better (when I wasn't changed SOI 16x16 axe)...than and timing was more advanced than now. But...maybe my feeling is wrong...I don't know for sure.
Here in my logs you can see both sheets...one for boost logging and other for timing. What do you think about timing...should it be more advanced or maybe retarted for RPMs 3500/4000 and this IQ?
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Originally Posted by sike_156 View Post
Regarding whistling sound...can you explain what you mean with pressure change/lost pressure...what is really going on and where...and is this dangerous or not?
When you hear whist turbo is discharging pressure because of overboosting or bad VNT map (it's an endless work lol I know).

Overboost is dangerous of course.

Injection looks like ok.

About rest you feel the bad VNT map and the linear torque line. You have ~150hp 3000-3800rpm and 375nm 2400rpm.

I attached your xls with some comments in color.
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(Post Link) post #21 of 30 Old 05-09-17 Thread Starter
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Q

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Originally Posted by ceecao View Post
When you hear whist turbo is discharging pressure because of overboosting or bad VNT map (it's an endless work lol I know).

Overboost is dangerous of course.
Hmm...but that whistling sound came only on highers RPMs and as I can see in previous logs, over 3000 RPMs boost is very close to requested boost (2350mbar) and as I found information somewhere, at higher RPMs and WOT VNT enters closed loop mode and VNT maps are irrelevant. So I think that VNT map cannot be responsible for whistling sound.

Of course, overboost should be avoided and I will try to correct VNT maps...but it is interesting thing (as you see in logs) that in 5th gear and WOT at 1500 RPMs boost seems OK at around 2500 RPMs, but when doing WOT at 1800 RPMs or higher, it overboosting around 2400 RPMs. It is also overboosting in 4th gear if doing WOT at 1500 RPMs. So I'm a little confused here because not sure in what range of IQ and RPMs in VNT map I should correct to avoid overboosting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ceecao View Post

About rest you feel the bad VNT map and the linear torque line. You have ~150hp 3000-3800rpm and 375nm 2400rpm.

I attached your xls with some comments in color.
I'm searching for a long time on internet some calculations how to calculate torque and power with IQ...how did you calculate that? Can you teach me?

Thanks!
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Hmm...but that whistling sound came only on highers RPMs

Of course, overboost should be avoided and I will try to correct VNT maps...but it is interesting thing (as you see in logs) that in 5th gear and WOT at 1500 RPMs boost seems OK at around 2500 RPMs, but when doing WOT at 1800 RPMs or higher, it overboosting around 2400 RPMs.

I'm searching for a long time on internet some calculations how to calculate torque and power with IQ...how did you calculate that? Can you teach me?

Thanks!
At high revs whistling sound is posible too, I hear it sometimes with my remaps when I cut boost at 4.000rpm to protect turbo from over-reving (190.000rpm), it's lost pressure. Close/open strategy has effect but at WOT VNT maps is the secret, if VNT maps are wrong ECU takes control and boost is not lineal. You should remember that there are VNT Eco and Sport maps too. If ECU sets Eco and it's ok... well... if selects Sport and it is wrong you have boost issues and whistling. There are some limiters for 2400mb and 2500mb too. I would stay under 2400mb for good reliablity. Your injection 65mm3 at high and 75mm3 at low don't need more, 2300mb could be better because of slower backpressure.

Overboost is due to injection quantity and VNT, at 1.500rpm 3a gear boost spools so fast and use xIQ and xVNT, at 1.800rpm and 4ª gear turbo spools slower and use different IQ and VNT. Yeah, it is hard work. To close EGR is not so easy if you want to do it well done

Well, I don't remember exact calcs, here in forum it should be, typical fórmula RPM-air-variable etc I used it sometimes to test only. My calcs comes from my real dynos and correction factors for it (Maha LPS 3000).
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Originally Posted by ceecao View Post
At high revs whistling sound is posible too, I hear it sometimes with my remaps when I cut boost at 4.000rpm to protect turbo from over-reving (190.000rpm), it's lost pressure. Close/open strategy has effect but at WOT VNT maps is the secret, if VNT maps are wrong ECU takes control and boost is not lineal. You should remember that there are VNT Eco and Sport maps too. If ECU sets Eco and it's ok... well... if selects Sport and it is wrong you have boost issues and whistling. There are some limiters for 2400mb and 2500mb too. I would stay under 2400mb for good reliablity. Your injection 65mm3 at high and 75mm3 at low don't need more, 2300mb could be better because of slower backpressure.

Overboost is due to injection quantity and VNT, at 1.500rpm 3a gear boost spools so fast and use xIQ and xVNT, at 1.800rpm and 4ª gear turbo spools slower and use different IQ and VNT. Yeah, it is hard work. To close EGR is not so easy if you want to do it well done

Well, I don't remember exact calcs, here in forum it should be, typical fórmula RPM-air-variable etc I used it sometimes to test only. My calcs comes from my real dynos and correction factors for it (Maha LPS 3000).
Hi again,
I've done some modifications in my VNT maps, but I still have some strange readings like before. First tuning of VNT maps I tried 3 years ago when I remaped car. It was overboosting at WOT so I lowered only last column for >64 mm3. That solved some problems, but from time to time it still overboosts (but never goes to limp mode). Than I loged n75 opening from low RPMs up to high revs (it was ECUs corrected values, which was lower than in maps) and than I assume that values I should put in maps. But as that values was much lower than stock, car became unresponsive at WOT. So I higher that values a bit up to point when car response was OK. And I drive a 2 years with that, but I also noticed a slight overboost sometimes at WOT but also higher boost than desired at lower IQ (cruise driving). That was I suppose because of closed EGR, so I lower n75 values between 1750-1500 RPMS and 0-40 IQ. Also have to lower some values between 40-64 for 1750,2000 and 2250 RPMs because it wasnt logic to me that I have higher n75 value for 48 IQ than for 20 IQ for let say, 2000 RPM. And car was OK to drive, still, sometimes at WOT still overboost a little. I'm not sure if I should touch stock n75 IQ and RPM values which are out of EGR range and still at stock IQ (40-60 mm3). So now I trying to remove that overboost, it is not a very big issue because for this 3 years, if this was a big problem, turbo would be already dead.

And other thing that I noticed in logs and I'm not sure why is this happening. When driving at almost constant speed around 2400-2500 RPMs and around 25-35 mm3 IQ, strange things happens with VNT.
It looks like at around 30mm3 ECU switch to some self logic and lowers n75 that cause boost drop. And than after 2500RPM or under 27-30 mm3 restores values that match values in maps. And it does not overboost a lot before or after (in logs you can see a overboost before and after for 100-200mbar, but as I see in logs in other RPMs and IQs, ECU don't think that is an issue because it never take control of n75 values , only at this range around 2400-2500 RPMs and around 30 mm3).

Does anyone know what is happening in ECU at this revs? I also opened this thread last year and it looks like that could be same cause (but than I was logging at WOT, not at constant speed): https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...ed-jtd-8v.html


I'm a little confused...
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Hi again,
I've done some modifications in my VNT maps, but I still have some strange readings like before.
Don't worry, it never ends. I did more than 30 or... VNT tweaks and today it's not perfect

Quote:
Originally Posted by sike_156 View Post
I'm not sure if I should touch stock n75 IQ and RPM values which are out of EGR range and still at stock IQ (40-60 mm3). So now I trying to remove that overboost, it is not a very big issue because for this 3 years, if this was a big problem, turbo would be already dead.
Yes, must to do it.

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Originally Posted by sike_156 View Post
And other thing that I noticed in logs and I'm not sure why is this happening. When driving at almost constant speed around 2400-2500 RPMs and around 25-35 mm3 IQ, strange things happens with VNT.
At 2500rpm some things happens like pilot could be off due to coolant/air temps. If your logged IQ was "total fuel qty" and you didn't changed acelerator pedal, it's pilot injection on/off and VNT change. You can log pilot and check it.
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(Post Link) post #25 of 30 Old 25-09-17 Thread Starter
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At 2500rpm some things happens like pilot could be off due to coolant/air temps. If your logged IQ was "total fuel qty" and you didn't changed acelerator pedal, it's pilot injection on/off and VNT change. You can log pilot and check it.
I've done some logging with pilot. It looks like it is not a pilot responsibility...it is active all the time. This looks very strange to me, even at 2200 RPMs n75 duty-cycle gets off from values in maps and it returns back at around 2600 RPM (look at picture xxxx-3.jpg). There is no much difference in measured and requested boost...but in n75 values it is. In picture xxx-4.jpg this issue occures at 2400 RPM and is back at 2600 RPM.
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