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147 2.0 Turbo on original ECU

Hi.

Considering turbocharging my 147 2.0

I have a spare bottom end that will receive h-beam rods and forged pistons with lower compression,
turbo will likely be from a TBi to begin with.

Has anyone tried turbomapping the Motronic?
I've spoken to several tuners that say they can tune it.

It would be both cheaper and less complicated than fitting an aftermarked ECU like LINK etc,
but is it reliable on a daily driver?


Would probably install wideband lambda as well to keep an eye on things...
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The Zeitronix AFR (wide band lambda) can emulate narrow band lambda that you can feed to the ECU while you can see the AFR real time:
Zeitronix Zt-3 & ZR-3 Wideband Gauge (RED/BLACK)

You'll need to find a tuner you trust that you can go to tune the car - It is not a DIY job. The install and 1st start can be DIY. There is no reason why it should not be reliable. I had a 146 2.0 that has done about 100k miles with a 0.4 bar turbo conversion.
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There are other Turbo builds in this forum, I wrote mine in the SA lounge as it started as a SA racing thread:

The turbo build process starts at post 217:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/south...l#post10683065
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Sorry for interrupting. I am also trying to start turbo conversion on 2.0t.s. CF3 in Alfa 147, 2005.

My first idea was to fit garrett T25 or T28 and get on 0.4 - 0.5 bar boost. Plan was to use a thicker cf2 head gasket and stock internals.

Second idea - I did some some research and measuring and i think that I found the way how to fit pistons from Fiat Coupe 16v turbo (pistons are 84mm in diameter), with much stronger conrods than 2.0t.s.

Now I am interested how many bar of boost can handle stock ecu? How does the ecu handle whit bigger injectors? Do I have to replace stock lambda with some beather lambda (wideband).
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I doubt you can use fiat coupe rods because of the different stroke on the 5-cyl
In that case, you'd better use the crank from a diesel to get the same ratio as the 5-syl. (See Patrola Serra engines on wikipedia)
However, i don't think the conrods from the coupe turbo are stronger that stock 2.0 4-cyl. After marked h-beam rods are cheap and probably the best.
But the pistons would be a good choise provided that the height of the wristpin is the same.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by classic81 View Post
I doubt you can use fiat coupe rods because of the different stroke on the 5-cyl
In that case, you'd better use the crank from a diesel to get the same ratio as the 5-syl. (See Patrola Serra engines on wikipedia)
I did not say that i want to use coupe conrods, and not 5cyl, it is 20v.
I want to use only pistons from coupe 4 cylinder 16v turbo 84mm (stock 2.0ts are 83mm).
1.9jtd crank can fit in the 2.0ts block?

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Originally Posted by classic81 View Post
However, i don't think the conrods from the coupe turbo are stronger that stock 2.0 4-cyl. After marked h-beam rods are cheap and probably the best.
But the pistons would be a good choise provided that the height of the wristpin is the same.
Coupe 16v turbo conrods are much stronger and massive than stock 2.0ts. And 2,0ts conrods have poor big end bolts. If i stay on stock 2.0 conrods i will polish them, balance, and redrill so i can fit bigger big end bolts (mabye from diesel).
I know that aftermarket conrods are the best solution, but for example the conrods that i want to fit are from diesel and used ones cost 20-40eur (all four). Four used pistons from coupe 16v turbo are 50-80eur.
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Your project is on Alfa GT. (i will read everything)
T.S. don't have same ECU. I think that GT 2.0jts have wideband lambda, high preassure fuel pump, direct fuel injecton...

I alredy bought 1.9 jtdm exhaust manifold, aloy intake manifold, another head for porting and polishing.

I just want to establish ECU possibilities before i start with this converson. If it can't handle over 0.5 bar boost i will stay on stock internals for about 200hp. If it can handle higher boost i will go on coupe 16v pistons, fiat/lancia 1.7td conrods, stronger gearbox (probably 6 speed 1.9 jtdm) for 250+hp.
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Thicker head gasket messes up the squish landing of the pistons. If you are going other pistons, then it can work as long as you check the crown height. If you are looking for 0.5 bar boost, stock motor, unopened will be fine. Approaching 1 bar and you need to pull tricks. I also have a turbo build thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Thicker head gasket messes up the squish landing of the pistons.

I was also thinking about to use CF2 pistons and head gasket, and stay on stock CR10:1. The reason for that is oil consumption of 300-400ml/1000km.
CF2 2.0ts have 1.2; 1.5; 3.0; improved piston rings with much lower oil consumption
CF3 2.0ts have 1.2; 1.2; 2.0; and the oil ring clogged up after xxxxx km


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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
If you are going other pistons, then it can work as long as you check the crown height.
I understand what you want to say. I am not sure does anyone tried do fit conrods from 1.7td punto with coupe 16v turbo pistons. 1.7td conrods looks very strong and thay have the same big end bearing diameter like 2.0ts, small end bearing is bigger in diameter (it can be fitted with another custom bearing) .

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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
If you are looking for 0.5 bar boost, stock motor, unopened will be fine. Approaching 1 bar and you need to pull tricks.
Is there any problems with maping on 0.5bar? What about 0.7 - 0.8bar? Where to put lambda? 30cm after turbo?

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I also have a turbo build thread.
I know. I read many of your threads and posts
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Better find turbo with manifold from TBi

All bolt on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Petar_ View Post
I was also thinking about to use CF2 pistons and head gasket, and stay on stock CR10:1. The reason for that is oil consumption of 300-400ml/1000km.
CF2 2.0ts have 1.2; 1.5; 3.0; improved piston rings with much lower oil consumption
CF3 2.0ts have 1.2; 1.2; 2.0; and the oil ring clogged up after xxxxx km
Yes CF2 pistons is better IMHO. The thicker fiber gasket becomes the weakest point, so you will notice head gasket failure before piston failure. 0.7bar I'd recommend a stronger gasket than OEM

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Originally Posted by _Petar_ View Post
Is there any problems with maping on 0.5bar? What about 0.7 - 0.8bar? Where to put lambda? 30cm after turbo?
On the stock ECU, I have heard it being done low boost upto 0.5bar. I'm not sure about ECU at 0.7bar, but talking about internals, you will have to lower CR or run water / meth when above 0.5bar.
Lambda at 30cm or a little more is fine , but not more than 50cm.

I like your idea of diesel conrods, have not investigated it myself, I am intrigued.
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Originally Posted by acab View Post
Better find turbo with manifold from TBi

All bolt on.
I did't know it was possible to fit manifold from TBi 1750. I don't know anything about that turbo. What marks are on turbo from tbi? Is it good for over 200hp on 2.0ts?

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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Yes CF2 pistons is better IMHO. The thicker fiber gasket becomes the weakest point, so you will notice head gasket failure before piston failure.
I understand this in this way: if i use thicker fiber gasket on 0.5bar boost that is good because i could safe my pistons from potentially melting (perhaps lean mixture)? Am I wrong


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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
I like your idea of diesel conrods, have not investigated it myself, I am intrigued.
I will do more measurements. Probably is too early to make thread about this connecting rods, but I can sent to you all data that i got.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Petar_ View Post
CF2 / CF3 piston / head gasket
I understand this in this way: if i use thicker fiber gasket on 0.5bar boost that is good because i could safe my pistons from potentially melting (perhaps lean mixture)? Am I wrong
Don't confuse fuel delivery (lean / rich) mixture that might cause piston melting with combustion chamber choices that prevents detonation (piston breaking).

A more rich mixture (12:1) keeps the flame temperature down (less chance for detonation) while producing a powerful stroke. A lower compression ratio only prevents detonation.

You have to match the piston to the head gasket, don't mix it... A CF2 piston with a CF3 gasket will cause the pistons to hit the head and break the pistons. A CF2 gasket with a CF3 piston will increase the gap between piston and head, so it will lower the compression ratio. The bad effect is the gap allows the flame to get to the edge of the piston and rings and create hot spots that increases the chance for detonation, so you win and loose at the same time.

The best way to lower CR is to get piston with a deeper dish in the middle with the edges (deck height) of the piston the same - That way you do not alter the squish / quench of the piston and head interaction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squish_(piston_engine)

My comment of CF2 system VS CF3 system is that I like the idea that the CF2 fiber gasket is it has less catastrophic failure and cheap to replace that the CF3 metal gasket that is stronger, but it might be too strong that the pistons break rather. That is if something breaks... but it should not break if all is done right
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how much tolerance is the oem ecu capable of? my oem injectors are JUST out of fuel at the top end (in my calculations) and i'm looking at something a tiny bit bigger. tiny.
would the oem ecu cope if i got something a smidge bigger? the other alternative is change the oem pump for a walboro 255lph one, maybe increase the pressure a bit?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Don't confuse fuel delivery (lean / rich) mixture that might cause piston melting with combustion chamber choices that prevents detonation (piston breaking).

A more rich mixture (12:1) keeps the flame temperature down (less chance for detonation) while producing a powerful stroke. A lower compression ratio only prevents detonation.

You have to match the piston to the head gasket, don't mix it... A CF2 piston with a CF3 gasket will cause the pistons to hit the head and break the pistons.
Thanks for the explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
A CF2 gasket with a CF3 piston will increase the gap between piston and head, so it will lower the compression ratio. The bad effect is the gap allows the flame to get to the edge of the piston and rings and create hot spots that increases the chance for detonation, so you win and loose at the same time.
//Meanwhile, I resolved my misunderstanding, but I left the text maybe it might help somebody...

I did some tuning on 2T engines. The 2T engines have a different construction than 4t engines. The squish between combuston chamber and the edge of the piston is same all around.

The thing that confuses me on 4T is different height of squish in combustion chamber in cyl head.
I post the picture: (first picture)
-Green, small squish (gap)
-Red, big squish (gap)

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...806570&thumb=1

My bad. I just measured the diameter of combustion chamber on cylinder head and it is 81mm (second picture), and piston is 82.5 on the crown. I thought they were the same.

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...806722&thumb=1

So, Do you know the dimension of squish for CF3 piston and 0.4mm (CF3) head gasket? I think I read somewhere that is 0.5mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
The best way to lower CR is to get piston with a deeper dish in the middle with the edges (deck height) of the piston the same - That way you do not alter the squish / quench of the piston and head interaction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squish_(piston_engine)

My comment of CF2 system VS CF3 system is that I like the idea that the CF2 fiber gasket is it has less catastrophic failure and cheap to replace that the CF3 metal gasket that is stronger, but it might be too strong that the pistons break rather. That is if something breaks... but it should not break if all is done right
I agree that this is the best way.
My idea for lowering CR is to polish the combustion chamber in cyl. head and remove "bumps" around the spark plugs. Also to do similar job like this on my pistons.
http://pretuning.com/wp-content/uplo...1/IMG_1786.jpg
Another solutions are:
-cutting 1mm from conrods
-2x0.4mm metal head gasket
-or CF2 1.9mm head gasket
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Just use for first time CF2 gasket.
1.2bar was fine for me on it.
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Does the 2.0 JTS have a MAP (manifold absolute pressure or air manifold pressure) sensor?

And, does the 2.0 TS have a MAP sensor?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Petar_ View Post
Does the 2.0 JTS have a MAP (manifold absolute pressure or air manifold pressure) sensor?

And, does the 2.0 TS have a MAP sensor?
No, both run of Mass Air Flow (MAF)
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