Electric petrol pumps - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By scrgdk
  • 1 Post By GTA R
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 24 Old 18-01-14 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Metat014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Debenham, Suffolk
County: Suffolk
Posts: 91
Hmmm Electric petrol pumps

Have any S2 owners had any experience of fitting an electric pump rather than use the fitted mechanical pump?
If so has there been a noticeable improvement in starting?
If this has been found to be beneficial can you advise on the following:
1. What make of pump did you fit?
2. Where in the engine bay did you fit it and what pipework was needed?
3. Did you need to fit any other item to assist the supply of fuel to the weber carbs?
4. Were there any unforeseen problems encountered?
5. Is this recommended?
Many thanks for reading this and I will appreciate your advice.
Metat014
Metat014 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: exploring TS torque
AO Member
 
mr_rhubarb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
County: Berlin
Posts: 324

Member car:

Golf; '73 Spider

I was about to do it and then was talked out of it. enough pumping of the gas pedal can draw fuel into the bowls from the filter. anyway, Im sure must make starting after sitting easier.

you need to have a fuel filter with the pressure regulator built in which I imagine you have (glass bowl type). although the pump itself needs to be mounted below the tank, near the rear axle, where the S4 spiders have them. electric pumps are better at pushing, so you need gravity to feed the pump.... there is heaps on alfabb about them. everyone uses the "Facet Red Top" pump. assume you need to wire a relay etc. good luck. let us know how you get on. I will probably do it one day, but have more pressing issues with mine....
mr_rhubarb is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 9

Member car:

S2 Spider

I fitted the 'Facet cylindrical pump' rated to 150 bhp. I mounted it under the car at the back,vertically, just where the fuel pipe comes through from the boot. The mounting bolts are drilled through into the boot. Its fairly close to the exhaust so I wrapped that with thermal tape for a couple of feet.
It starts and runs well, no need for another regulator and the pump has an internal filter. In truth it only really makes a difference when the car has been standing for a while.
c8okw is offline  
Status: Green mamba :D
AO Silver Member
 
scrgdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Western Cape
Posts: 4,740

Member car:

156 sw 2.5

In SA we get two types of pumps, namely the "push" and the "pull" type. I don't think facet makes a pull pump, but a company called Huco does, ask your local spares if they have any "pull" pumps then you can mount it in the engine bay without any troubles.
scrgdk is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 24 Old 20-01-14 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Metat014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Debenham, Suffolk
County: Suffolk
Posts: 91
Many thanks to mr rhubarb, c80kw and scrgdk for taking the time to reply which is most helpful.
There seems to be a general consensus as to the type of pump and fitting location, the detail about alfabb was also useful so will note this reference.
As with all new delights they take time to get used to and my initial problem was getting the engine to start although I was influenced by the previous owner who thought it might be a good idea to solve this problem especially if the car had not been started for a while.
However, having spoken to my local classic car specialist, charging the battery, changing the plugs and using full choke without touching the accelerator pedal it now starts on the first turn of the key even after a few days of not starting up.
Will monitor the situation and if the problem reappears when very damp and extremely cold shall give this mod active consideration. You have been very helpful, thank you.
Metat014 is offline  
Status: Green mamba :D
AO Silver Member
 
scrgdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Western Cape
Posts: 4,740

Member car:

156 sw 2.5

Also, changing the points and condensor won't hurt either...
scrgdk is offline  
Status: all running well....so far
AO Silver Member
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Germany
County: Nordrhein-Westfalen
Posts: 3,741

Member car:

Alfa Spider 4

alfas have worked fine for decades on the mechanical pump, before the injected cars came out requiring electric pumps!
Keep your old pump, would be my advice.......it worked fine on my 62 sprint for 20+years of ownership in all weathers!......
Obviously, as above, make sure pump, points, plugs, leads and sparkplugs are good.......the basics.

....couple of pumps of the throttle to prime the webers and 'maybe' in v. cold climes pull the choke out a bit once she has started, just to help her move off!
spiderserie4 is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 24 Old 21-01-14 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Metat014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Debenham, Suffolk
County: Suffolk
Posts: 91
Thanks again to scrgdk and to spiderserie4 your comments are also noted. However, found that pumping the accelerator pedal caused problems so as a result do not touch it at all and now the engine starts at the first turn. Guess all these Italian beauties respond to a variety of touches and it just takes time and patience to find out which brings the best response.
Metat014 is offline  
Status: Green mamba :D
AO Silver Member
 
scrgdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Western Cape
Posts: 4,740

Member car:

156 sw 2.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metat014 View Post
Thanks again to scrgdk and to spiderserie4 your comments are also noted. However, found that pumping the accelerator pedal caused problems so as a result do not touch it at all and now the engine starts at the first turn. Guess all these Italian beauties respond to a variety of touches and it just takes time and patience to find out which brings the best response.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Funny story, I was struggling to get my 116 to start and it would take AGES to take. Eventually a friend of mine was stuck without a ride for a holiday and needed a car, I offered my GTV and he 1st refused, but in the end he couldn't et another car, not even a rental due to it being December and all. He got in the car, pumped the gas 3 times and she swung and took 1st time boy did I have egg on my face...
Needless to say said friend took 2 extra days to return the car as he "didn't want to" he is currently looking for a 116 or 916 as we speak

Mazda 323 1.3
Toyota Tazz 1.3
Mazda Etude 180isx
Mazda 6 2.3
AR GTV 116 2.0
AR 147 2.0
AR 147 1.6

AR 156

click to add me on Facebook
scrgdk is offline  
Status: Make it so no. 1
AO Gold Member
 
Mr Dunamis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Lancashire
Posts: 6,233
I have bought a Facet electric pump to fit to my Gt Jnr. My thinking here is that if I don't use her for more than 7 days she is a pig to start and has to turn over for ages before sufficient fuel is pumped through for her to start. And the battery is nearly exhausted by the time she kicks into life. So with an electric fuel pump this will aid my cold starting. As it's a Facet pump it will need to go near the tank and be mounted vertically so it looks like I will be spending some time under the car in the near future.

[/SIGPIC]
'It's no longer grim up North' www.Flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
Mr Dunamis is offline  
Status: Vivat least vaguest.
AO Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
County: -
Posts: 719
I'd really urge fitting of a tachymetric relay. A good "failsafe" measure. The ones used often here have a telltale LED on the relay housing so you know when current is getting to the pump. A concealed switch as part of the relay wiring can also serve as additional anti-theft protection.
addo is offline  
Status: Alfisti
AO Silver Member
 
Joe90GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Gloucestershire
Posts: 3,216
I'm with Dom on this one - my S2 has a mechanical pump and even after two weeks sitting around in the cold outside (under a cover) will start after three pumps and half throttle, no choke - mines disconnected anyway - it might die first time but will settle after a couple of goes, I have a 123 and everything is spot on so that probably helps, I'd say if your having problems starting then go through the usual checks, these cars are not hard starters by nature
Joe90GT is offline  
Status: Make it so no. 1
AO Gold Member
 
Mr Dunamis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Lancashire
Posts: 6,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90GT View Post
I'm with Dom on this one - my S2 has a mechanical pump and even after two weeks sitting around in the cold outside (under a cover) will start after three pumps and half throttle, no choke - mines disconnected anyway - it might die first time but will settle after a couple of goes, I have a 123 and everything is spot on so that probably helps, I'd say if your having problems starting then go through the usual checks, these cars are not hard starters by nature
I have a 123 and she starts really well when she is used regularly; my Lancia has an aftermarket electric pump fitted and starts on the button no matter how long she is left between journeys. I have fitted a new fuel pump and fuel regulator on the GT and they have made no difference.
Mr Dunamis is offline  
Status: exploring TS torque
AO Member
 
mr_rhubarb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
County: Berlin
Posts: 324

Member car:

Golf; '73 Spider

Whichever way you go, I wouldn't get too hung up on vertical-ness. I originally put mine right back near the tank and almost vertical but close to the exhaust / rear muffler. It worked well but I then got a cutting out problem in hot weather so I moved the pump to the "standard" location under the rear RH floor, and horizontal.

The cutting out problem tuned out to be a melted fuse holder and nothing to do with heat near the pump. However the subsequent horizontal-ness of the new installation causes no problem and it's well out of the heat, and easier to get to (not that I've needed to)
mr_rhubarb is offline  
Status: Make it so no. 1
AO Gold Member
 
Mr Dunamis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Lancashire
Posts: 6,233
For those who have retrofitted an electric pump where is the best place to take power from bearing in mind the pump will be towards the rear of the car?
Mr Dunamis is offline  
Status: Green mamba :D
AO Silver Member
 
scrgdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Western Cape
Posts: 4,740

Member car:

156 sw 2.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Dunamis View Post
For those who have retrofitted an electric pump where is the best place to take power from bearing in mind the pump will be towards the rear of the car?
I ran a cable straight from the battery and put an inline fuse on the wire. I do not trust the older cars and their wiring for the "new school" pumps power requirements.
addo likes this.
scrgdk is offline  
Status: all running well....so far
AO Silver Member
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Germany
County: Nordrhein-Westfalen
Posts: 3,741

Member car:

Alfa Spider 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrgdk View Post
I ran a cable straight from the battery and put an inline fuse on the wire....
but isn't your pump then always live, no matter what?

Elec. pumps should really be wired, so they only operate when you turn the ignition key to 'on'
spiderserie4 is offline  
Status: Make it so no. 1
AO Gold Member
 
Mr Dunamis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Lancashire
Posts: 6,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post
but isn't your pump then always live, no matter what?

Elec. pumps should really be wired, so they only operate when you turn the ignition key to 'on'
I would have thought so; wired via the ignition switch somewhere along the line.
Mr Dunamis is offline  
Status: Green mamba :D
AO Silver Member
 
scrgdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Western Cape
Posts: 4,740

Member car:

156 sw 2.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post
but isn't your pump then always live, no matter what?



Elec. pumps should really be wired, so they only operate when you turn the ignition key to 'on'


Apologies let me elaborate.
Two ways of hooking it up.
1) straight from battery with an inline fuse and switch (yes I did forget to add that)
2) corrected via relay power coming from battery signal coming from ignition barrel.
In all the cars I've fitted it I've used option one mostly. It also serves as a theft deterrent if the switch is well hidden. My gtv had it under the steering wheel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
scrgdk is offline  
Status: exploring TS torque
AO Member
 
mr_rhubarb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
County: Berlin
Posts: 324

Member car:

Golf; '73 Spider

I mounted a relay in the boot, switch under the dash, relay powered from battery. It's useful to be able to have the ignition on, engine off, but the pump not running
mr_rhubarb is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Alphamale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Leicestershire
Posts: 205
Old thread I know but, how much current do these pumps take? I'm thinking of a Huco engine bay mounted one. Anybody used them?

Last edited by Alphamale; 1 Week Ago at 12:59. Reason: more info.
Alphamale is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
GTA R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United Kingdom
County: South Yorkshire
Posts: 239
Garage
I have had 3 x 105's, and fitted an electric, reciprocating type cylindrical pump to each, in the engine bay, on the RHD chassis leg, near the front of the car. First two were Facet Red Tops, the one on my current Ti Super Rep is an old (but best of the best), Mitsuba left over from my rally days.

I always use an inline one-way valve in the line, to prevent drain back, and there has never been an ounce of a problem using these "pull" type pumps in that position.

If you look at an early Porsche 911 on carbs, the (Bendix, same type as Facet), is fitted in the engine bay, almost at the same height as the carburettors.
It has to pull the fuel a long way from the tank mounted low in the nose. If it was good enough for Mr Porsche, then it's ok wth me.
I'd mounted them in the engine bay before on my rally cars, principally because I didn't want them getting bashed underneath. Never had one fail.
It's also much easier to get to under the bonnet if you did have to.

I also have friends fit them in the engine bay with no issues, in particular a hot Triumph Spitfire on twin DCOE's, and one with a TR6 on triple 40's.
I always use a Malpassi Filter King pressure regulator in the line between pump and carbs, mounted high up on the front of the RHD inner wing, to regulate to 3.5psi maximum.
Also a good relay.

Using this system you can disconnect the choke. Once the float chambers are full after a few seconds of the ignition going on, a couple of pumps on the throttle and it starts first time (3/4 pumps in the depths of winter).
Alphamale likes this.
GTA R is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 270

Member car:

1975 Alfetta GT

There seems to be a conspiracy spread about by the Porshe lot that modern fuel evaporates quickly, which leads to the carburettor bowls going dry after a week of standing. I am leaning towards this theory. I recently replaced my Nord 1750 engine's fuel pump in the hope that I would cure this nasty habit of not being able to start the car after a week of standing. Nope. I considered an electric primer pump, like the one on an Ikarus C42, but you would need to rememeber to turn it off. Maybe wire it in with the choke light? Now I'm thinking I will just fit a bulb primer like in my old microlight, that also used to get dry bowls. I worry that if you have a crash (god forbid) the electric fuel pump could just keep pumping fuel onto a potential fire.

For me, I have to lift the bonnet to reconnet the battery, so I might as well prime the carbs while there.
alfahaze is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Alphamale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Leicestershire
Posts: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfahaze View Post
I worry that if you have a crash (god forbid) the electric fuel pump could just keep pumping fuel onto a potential fire.
.
I'm thinking along same lines, an electric pump just to prime carbs. Need one that will flow through when not powered. Maybe a push button that will only power pump while pressed, that way can't forget to turn off?
Alphamale is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > The Classic Alfa Romeos

Tags
electric , petrol , pumps

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome