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(Post Link) post #1 of 106 Old 02-05-07 Thread Starter
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Democracy at work....

Yesterday Mr Gordon Brown said that if the SNP were elected to the Scottish parliament, he wouldn't deal with Alex Salmond.

I have a bit of a problem with this. Is this not a democratic country? If Alex Salmond is elected by a poll of the people for the devolved Scottish parliament, what right does a non elected PM have to say he won't talk to him? Surely that IS undemocratic?
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Re: Democracy at work....

absolutely...brown showing his true colours...god help us..
 
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Re: Democracy at work....

Gordon Brown, the man who f*cked our pensions while we weren't looking and has presided over the heaviest taxation we have ever seen while wasting £BILLIONS on badly managed public services for the benefit of big business. I would trust him as far as I could toss his caber . I think it's safe to say he's full of sh*t.
 
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Re: Democracy at work....

Tony Blair said yesterday in Scotland that the next prime minister would be a Scot. I think that was supposed to make me vote labour. Patronising git.

WRT Gordon Brown - isn't it the Labour government who are saying that if the SNP get in the next few years would be about conflict between the Scottish and Westminster Governments? It looks like that's because labour are going to throw their toys out the pram.
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This govt are just as vindictive as Thatcher's govt, if anyone p*sses them off, they want revenge, you only have to look at the way they tried to treat Ken Livingstone when he went for Mayor of London or the way they treated the BBC in the light of the Kelly affair, all the way up to the recent last minute hatchet by Brown on the Licence Fee settlement that had been negotiated and agreed with Tessa Jowell. And their whole culture of punishing failing public services too, so that the end users, patients and schoolkids for example, are shafted.
 
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I've Christened Alex Salmond "McMugabe", as I fear he will ***** up Scotland royally all on the back of an obsession. There's no enthusiasm in Scotland for the union with England to be broken, but he could just get in because they want Labour out, but won't vote Tory!!.

I don't like Brown one bit. He's just mucked about with the taxation of work vans which means that even though we have to take ours home for security reasons we can no longer use them for any private use (about 500 miles a year in my case..if that) without being hammered for about three times the tax of previous years plus extra N.I. By not having any private use we now escape the tax completely..so he does not gain, but its a pain in the as* for everyone as i still have to park the bloody thing at home. I'm actually £10 a week better off as we used to pay this to the co. for private use, and occasionally it was useful. Not any more. What a W**ker

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Re: Democracy at work....

lol welcome to politics NI style, here it is very regular for elected representitives to refuse to take their seats in westminister as they have to swear allegience to teh queen, to refuse to go to work because theres politicians there they dont agree with (like WTF?) and refusing to meet with their co workers. we are shafted six ways from sunday by every law going because theres noone doing anything to stop it, there is no point in voting in NI except to keep the worst ones out imo

hope scotland doesnt go teh same way, imo they are public servants and have a duty to fulfill the obligations of their post or resign (be shot from a cannon preferrably) from their post

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Re: Democracy at work....

Without getting too political, I can understand Republican politicians not wanting to go to Westminster and pledge alliegance to the Crown, but refusing to attend your own Parliament (Republican or Loyalist) because you don't agree with/hate the opposition is beyond belief. I don't have a particular liking for Paisley, Adams, McGuinness or the like, they're all a bunch of ex-terrorists and nutters but the whole point is that they have to start talking and working with each other to lay the path so that the next generation of NI politicians can make real progress.
And while we're on the subject, I guess the only thing that's stopping David Trimble being knighted is the fact that it would p*ss off the Republicans. He always shone out as a beacon of reason when there seemed so little hope.

Last edited by VO2Max; 05-05-07 at 09:36. Reason: Typo
 
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Re: Democracy at work....

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Originally Posted by AlfaLincs View Post
I've Christened Alex Salmond "McMugabe",
AlfaLincs
Given Mugabe's record I can't help thinking that's a gross insult to any UK politician, regardless of what you think of them, and a particular slur on the Scottish electorate who voted for Salmond as First Minister
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i would never admit it here but i feel that trimble made a damn good effort to change the political thinking here, 2 years before he was first minister he was on the front line at drumcree riling the troops and being a serious antagonist but when he moved away from that i thought he was a very decent bloke who did his best to at least appear fair, maybe it was because he realised the rest of the world were starting to look this way and see what was going on but all teh saem he did his job properly, just a pity that the next election after that showed that no one wanted a party like that here

it really does take the biscuit saying that you wont sit with the opposition because theyre your political opposite? i thought that was the point of government non?

also it really grates on me the amount of money they got since they left work in 2002, if i didnt go to work i wouldnt get paid end of, saem should apply all round and imo they should be made pay it back 1/2 wages for the next 5 years?

dont really wanna get started on it so ill just stop now.

peace
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Peace...indeed!
 
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Re: Democracy at work....

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Originally Posted by VO2Max View Post
Gordon Brown, the man who f*cked our pensions while we weren't looking and has presided over the heaviest taxation we have ever seen while wasting £BILLIONS on badly managed public services for the benefit of big business. I would trust him as far as I could toss his caber . I think it's safe to say he's full of sh*t.
Now come on VO2MAX - dont beat around the bush tell us how you really feel about Gordon
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Re: Democracy at work....

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Originally Posted by AlfaLincs View Post
There's no enthusiasm in Scotland for the union with England to be broken
I disagree, I think that many Scots are nervous about breaking the Union, yes. But I do think that, deep down, if they thought it would work they'd jump at the chance. the only problem is, that everyone except the SNP, Socialists and the like are telling them it would be economically desasterous.

That's not to say that I dislike anyone English, Irish or Welsh, or want nothing to do with them. The vast majority are jolly nice people. But I do think that Nations need to stand on they're own (Belgum, Luxenbourg, Aire and if you want to go back far enough Iceland for example). It would also solve problems like English voters getting p155ed off when Scottish MP vote on matters that don't concern Scotland. Or Polaris getting stuck in a Scottish Loch by a Westminster Government.

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Re: Democracy at work....

Good post by FastFrank.

I don't have a problem with Scotland going it alone if that's what its people genuinely want.

BUT, I do think that in such an event they should no longer benefit economically from the remainder of the UK as they do now nor should they be allowed to be represented in our Parliament in any way, shape or form which would include sending Gordon Brown back home to "rule"
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Re: Democracy at work....

Gordon Brown is the best thing to happen to UK politics in years. Over the next 2 to 3 years he is the man who will show the country Labour's true colours therefore guaranteeing us a change of government in the next election. So in a roundabout kind of way you've gotta love Gordon

As for Scotland I think it's up to the Scottish people to decide whether or not they want to be part of the UK. But if they do, then surely it would have to mean independence for England too ie. no English tax money being spent in Scotland, and no Scottish parliament member having any say in English issues

As for the economics of it all I was always under the impression that the English taxpayer subsidised Scotland and Wales. Is this still the case? (NB. Please don't mention tax revenue from "Scottish" oil - anything over 12 miles offshore isn't Scottish, it's international waters so the oil belongs to the company who've dug it up)

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing whatsoever against Scotland or the Scottish (I am partially of them after all) but you can't have your cake and eat it. Independence should mean FULL independence, or no deal

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Re: Democracy at work....

It's a much misquoted statistic that Scotland benefits from "English" taxpayers. The numbers generally refer to the Barnet Formula which on the face of it favours Scotland. Unfortunately, the formula does not take into account all aspects of wealth generation and therefore gives the impression the Scots get more than their fair share. The fact is that Scottish/British oil has been a huge factor in the wealth of the entire nation and it would be completely wrong not to factor it into any discussion/measurement. If you do you'll find that Scotland has been a net subsidiser of the UK tax system.

As to whether Scotland should opt for independence, well that's a matter for the Scots themselves. After all they chose to become part of the Union through their own free will in the first place.

I used to be dead against the break up but since we are all now much closer to Europe I can see little harm in us breaking away and retaing EU membership. I think it would be better for the UK as a whole as I believe we would all work harder and be more successful as independent nations within Europe.
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Re: Democracy at work....

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Originally Posted by ACAPULCO AL View Post
but you can't have your cake and eat it. Independence should mean FULL independence, or no deal
That IS us having our cake and eating it. And damn tasty it would be too. unfortunately the unionist politicians up here are going to do their damndest to scupper any chance of us having a real choice in the matter. If we're subsidised by England so much why are the politicians so desperate to hang onto us?

EDIT - The libdems in Scotland will be hung out to dry at the next election. They've just proven the point that many have asked - what is the point of them?
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Re: Democracy at work....

I'm not too well up on this subject and inclined towards the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' point of view. But to tell the truth I don't know whether it's broke or not.

Can someone explain to me why Scotland might want to finish with the union. Is it really broke in your opinion ??



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Re: Democracy at work....

I'm sure you'll get other answers, but here are some of my reasons:

1) In voting trends over a very long period of time it is clear that the Scots have different social and political priorities than the English.
2) In order to get rid of the Scots cringe and stop blaming the English for everything we need to stand on our own feet.
3) Scotland has more or less the same land mass as England (although you might question that if you looked at a BBC weather map) and 10% of the population. In geopolitical terms our priorities are different.
4) We are fed up getting purely English news on the BBC and ITV "national" news programmes. Have you ever noticed, for example, that the SPL results don't get a mention at all on the ITV news at the weekend?
5) The Union was anti-democratic in the first place, although it seems our current leaders are prepared to adopt the same underhand tactics.
6) We are fed-up being the test bed for controversial westminster policies that get tried here first. Poll tax anyone?
7) Why do we have to put up with nuclear subs but not get the benefit of servicing the damn things.
8) Why are we the ones to puit up with a nuclear base close to our major centres of population?
9) We are a proud people and many of us WANT to do this, just to get out of the coat-tails of our larger neighbour.
10)We want to take control of our negotiations with Europe and others on agriculture, fisheries, foreign policy, the environment etc.
11) We have our own laws and education systems that are being eroded by those of our larger neighbour.

I could go on....

Some of the above are slightly flippant but it gives you a feel for my views on the matter.
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Re: Democracy at work....

Gibbo,

It aint broke as such, it's just well past it's sell by date. And just to underline one or two of the points made above; Scotland has never had a majority of Conservative support yet her population has had to endure (benefit in my opinion) Conservative Westminster Govt on many occasions. Can you imagine the outcry in England if a majority voted Tory but had a labour Govt imposed on it?

So you see, the sentiment is not that it's broke or it's anti-english it's just a modern framework for the country which better fits our geo-political situation.

My only fear for a fully independent Scotland would be if it followed it's left leaning socialist tendencies which have created so much poverty. If we grasp the prize of a freemarket economy then we can fulfil all our needs for a fairer and richer society.
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Re: Democracy at work....

I think it is very important to point out that Scottish Nationalism does not equal Anti Englishism! It is the fact that Westminster tends to treat our Nation as a provence. I think all of the Brittish Countries should be indipendant. And I agree that Scottish MPs should not be allowed to vote on matters that don't concern them. But, PLEASE, PLEASE don't send us Gordon Brown, after all, we didn't vote for him!! )
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Re: Democracy at work....

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I think it is very important to point out that Scottish Nationalism does not equal Anti Englishism! It is the fact that Westminster tends to treat our Nation as a provence. I think all of the Brittish Countries should be indipendant. And I agree that Scottish MPs should not be allowed to vote on matters that don't concern them. But, PLEASE, PLEASE don't send us Gordon Brown, after all, we didn't vote for him!! )


no PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take him back!!
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Re: Democracy at work....

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My only fear for a fully independent Scotland would be if it followed it's left leaning socialist tendencies which have created so much poverty. If we grasp the prize of a freemarket economy then we can fulfil all our needs for a fairer and richer society.
It's a possibility but less than likely if you count the share of New Labour, Tory, LibDem and SNP votes. Scotland would be a social democratic country, despite the high-profile shenanigans of Tommy Sheridan and his ilk.
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Re: Democracy at work....

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It's a possibility but less than likely if you count the share of New Labour, Tory, LibDem and SNP votes. Scotland would be a social democratic country, despite the high-profile shenanigans of Tommy Sheridan and his ilk.
So a gradual decline into poverty rather than a rapid one, eh?

Still, at least I'll have choice as to where I can slope off to if it disnae work
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Re: Democracy at work....

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So a gradual decline into poverty rather than a rapid one, eh?

Still, at least I'll have choice as to where I can slope off to if it disnae work
What, have you no faith in your own people

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