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(Post Link) post #1 of 29 Old 09-03-08 Thread Starter
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Rip-off Britain Again

According to the latest Evo magazine a new Ford Mustang GT V8 in basic trim costs around £13,250 over there! A V6 is less than a grand! No mention of extra taxes.

Also the Nissan GT-R will cost around £60K in the UK where it is around £40k including taxes!!!! Out of interest, the tyres for the GT-R will set you back around £500 each
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(Post Link) post #2 of 29 Old 09-03-08 Thread Starter
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

That's £40K in Japan
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Actually the lowest-spec GT-R over here will be more like £35,000.
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by TANKMAN104C View Post
According to the latest Evo magazine a new Ford Mustang GT V8 in basic trim costs around £13,250 over there! A V6 is less than a grand! No mention of extra taxes.

At today's current exchange rate, your £13,250 will net you $26,441.70 Canadian.

Here a base Mustang GT V8 starts at $33,999 and that's before all the extra taxes and shipping and other add-on charges. The V6 starts at $24,799.

Care to keep whining?
--Toronto
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Yes!

It's crazy... and your petroleums cheaper!
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

What I didn't add was that Mustangs are produced about 400km away from where I sit right now, so it's not like our cars need to be shipped halfway around the world.

I really do find English AOErs whining about car prices a bit funny, especially as so many of your European and Scandinavian neighbours pay considerably more than you do in the UK.

Our gas prices are cheaper because we're actually a net oil exporter. (Actually we're a net energy exporter in total taking into account not only oil but natural gas and uranium.) Yes I know about your North Sea platforms, but in comparison, they only produce a trickle compared to our output.

Now given our resources, you'd think we'd swimming in dirt cheap gas like a lot of the OPEC countries. That's hardly the case, and predictions are that the prices are going up by another 50 cents per litre by the end of summer. Of course we're expected to sacrifice just to keep our American cousins happy.

Quote:
According to Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Canada had a reported 179.2 billion barrels of proven oil reserves as of January 2007, second only to Saudi Arabia. Canada’s total oil production (including all liquids) was 3.3 million bbl/d in 2006. The country sends over 99 percent of its oil exports to the U.S., and it is consistently one of the top three sources of U.S. oil imports.

The UK is the largest producer of oil and natural gas in the EU. However, after years of being a net exporter of both fuels, the UK became a net importer of natural gas in 2004. Government estimates also predict that the country will become a net importer of oil by the end of the decade. Production from UK oil and natural gas fields peaked in the late 1990s and has declined steadily over the past several years, as the discovery of new reserves has not kept pace with the maturation of existing fields.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Canada/Oil.html
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by Toronto Spider View Post

I really do find English AOErs whining about car prices a bit funny, especially as so many of your European and Scandinavian neighbours pay considerably more than you do in the UK.
I'm not completely sure that either comment is entirely fair TS.

I admit I don't have the inclination to research this answer properly tonight but I think our European friends tend to pay lower prices "on the road". It isn't always the manufacturers taking advantage.

We have higher taxation and the poor exchange rate, now about EUR1.30:£ (which is down about 12% since last summer) tend to make our prices higher and there is generally a demand for higher specification which is often overlooked in these headline-grabbing articles.

I also think your "whining English" comment is unnecessarily inflammatory. It is entirely reasonable to question why there appears to be a differential, I feel.


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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Put him in your ignore list then you don't have to read such nonsense
 
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Still have to meet an Englishman that doesn't like a good or any whine(wine).
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by Graham P View Post
Put him in your ignore list then you don't have to read such nonsense
Actually, I have Toronto on my buddies list. There's no harm is having a disagreement.




I do find it funny though listening to both Americans and Canadians whining about fuel going up about 25p/litre when they still enjoy some of the cheapest motoring in the free World. (Sorry Toronto - a cheap, sarcastic shot!)
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

The problem with TS is she is usually spot on and right....

Which is why he is a pain in the ass.....



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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Incidentally TS, your source is correct. The UK is now a net importer of oil and gas.

Our political mistake (by successive governments) was to sell it cheaply for immediate revenue when prices were low. Now we don't have much left we pay top dollar for it to be imported.
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Being English we crave disappointment.


That's why I buy Kinder Surprise... foul tasting chocolate and a nasty little toy.. A double whammy!
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

I think a lot of us are like that OA, not just in the UK
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by 73GTVJim View Post
I'm not completely sure that either comment is entirely fair TS.

I admit I don't have the inclination to research this answer properly tonight but I think our European friends tend to pay lower prices "on the road". It isn't always the manufacturers taking advantage.
I never said it was the manufacturer taking advantage. I know that taxes play a huge part in the price of any car in any place around the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 73GTVJim
We have higher taxation and the poor exchange rate, now about EUR1.30:£ (which is down about 12% since last summer) tend to make our prices higher and there is generally a demand for higher specification which is often overlooked in these headline-grabbing articles.
It's not the headlines that I pay attention to. It's the posts right here on AO. I've been a member here for enough years that I've got a pretty good idea of comparative prices of cars (especially Alfas) across the nations which produce our members. Consistently it seems like the British AOers pay less (factoring in exchange rates) than the AOers in Denmark or Greece or the Netherlands do for similar cars. (I won't say identical because I know there are country-specific packages).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 73GTVJim
I also think your "whining English" comment is unnecessarily inflammatory. It is entirely reasonable to question why there appears to be a differential, I feel.
Sure it's fine to question, but I didn't see any questioning at all in this thread. I saw the original poster put up some prices and two people offered direct comparisons -- one higher and one lower. So in other words, the British prices are in the middle and not at the extreme ends of the examples.

I also saw the original poster start with a presumption that the British prices were a yet another rip-off. That's stating a loaded (to say the least) premise, and from where I sit (in a country that pays considerably higher prices for cars) it sounds like moaning/complaining/whining/take your pick. If any of the posters had even put through a single logical argument as to why the higher prices aren't justified, I'd have been fascinated to read it. That would have given me a perspective I haven't been exposed to before. You've come the closest, Jim (as you usually do), when you mentioned the falling exchange rate against the Euro, but seeing as we're dealing with Japanese and American cars, you're slightly off the mark (or I'm just not following your argument, which could be the case). The other factor that I should have mentioned in my original post was that the US dollar and the Canadian dollar about par these days. Some days ours is point or two higher, some days it's a point or two lower, so when you factor that exchange rate into the car prices, the Mustangs become an even better deal in the UK.

So if you think I'm being inflamatory for saying that there is whining, and I think there is a lot of crying about nothing, how about this suggestion to take the thread forward in a manner that would better facilitate further discussion: let's play automotive executive and ask people to post what they think would be a far price for British AOers to pay for the Mustang and/or the Nissan? And I mean fair, not pie-in-the-sky ridiculous. Plus tell us how and why that price was decided.

If you want, I'll start. Given the type of car (small RWD sports coupe with an eight cylinder engine) and the type of market (niche) and the origin of the vehicle (US, making it an import into the UK) I think the price is perfectly reasonable, especially when it's less than a 147 (the UK Alfa website is advertising a 147 starting at 13,950 pounds OTR), and a 147 is pulled from the wrong end rather than pushed from the right one and has half as many cylinders.
--Toronto

Last edited by Toronto Spider; 10-03-08 at 18:38.
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham P View Post
Put him in your ignore list then you don't have to read such nonsense
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73GTVJim View Post
Actually, I have Toronto on my buddies list. There's no harm is having a disagreement.
I doubt I'm worth putting on anybody's ignore list. My 1.5 (or whatever the figure is) posts per day are hardly even worth noticing.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 73GTVJim View Post
I do find it funny though listening to both Americans and Canadians whining about fuel going up about 25p/litre when they still enjoy some of the cheapest motoring in the free World. (Sorry Toronto - a cheap, sarcastic shot!)
Accepted and noted.

My biggest whine about the gas situation is not about the prices per se, but our country's give-it-away-like-a-free -lunch energy policy that leaves no room for ensuring we have adequate supply for our own needs. Essentially under NAFTA (and under the FTA before that) we've screwed ourselves, but that's a subject for a different thread (as is the topic of gas prices in general).
--Toronto
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Toronto, I don;t understand; you say that you pay considerably higehr car prices; how much do you pay for the Mustang all in? £17K for a base GT V8 is cheap, so I wonder how much the taxes etc add?
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

I think you've lost the plot!We paymore tax in the UK than anywhere else in the universe! If you'd like to offer me employment as an electrician I'll be there the day after tomorrow!!! If a car costs £15k in britain it costs E15k i europe!!! that is a 40% difference, just because it's being sold in Britain.In America it is exactly half at the moment ie £7,500!! Tonight on 5th gear they were talking V8 mustangs for £15k, what do they cost in U.S./Canada? In England we pay far more tax than even Jap car buyers in America! I tink it's time the UK went LHD today! It would devalue all our RHD cars but imagine what would be available to us!!!
 
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And our petrol costs 2 dollars a litre!!! That must be nearly 10 dollars a US gallon!!! Britain is being ripped on into becoming a third world country by it's own government!!!
 
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

Toronto you've picked a particularly niche product in the 147 at the moment. They are flogging an outgoing model in every way they can at the moment, especialy with the Collezione model. Why not compare a 159 to say a Camaro, if they still make them?
 
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by mave View Post
Toronto, I don;t understand; you say that you pay considerably higehr car prices; how much do you pay for the Mustang all in? £17K for a base GT V8 is cheap, so I wonder how much the taxes etc add?

Partly that is my fault. I initially misunderstood the original post a bit. In my defence the writing isn't exactly clear. I originally thought the poster was complaining about the price of a Mustang in the UK. I realize now that the price is the American equivalent -- I think the "rip-off UK" title threw me a bit also.

Still my point still stands. If you think you're the only country getting gouged you're not. Take a look at what I said about how we pay a significant premium compared to the US prices and take into consideration that
a) we're part of the same trading block
b) our auto manufacturing industry is completely integrated
c) our currencies are equal at the moment.

As for what you may consider to be relatively cheap (by your standards) you have to remember that what looks good to you (after you convert it into English pounds) doesn't look as good to us when we get paid in Canadian dollars.

As with any price comparison, it's not just the price itself, but how the price relates to the rest of the economic factors including the average wage, the standard of living, etc. The Canadian average income for a single person (2005 which is the most recent figure I can find) is $27,000. From what I can find on the Web, it looks like that average income for a single UK resident is around £23,600. as a percentage of income, the Mustang is costlier here than a similar priced car would be there.

Even leaving Canada out of the equation for a moment, it still seems that cars have a cheaper base price in the UK than in other neighbouring countries. If we take a base 147 for example, the AR UK website says the starting price is £13,950. The AR Netherlands site lists the 147 starting at 19,795 Euros (which is £15,054 according to today's exchange rate). The Danish AR site has 147s starting at K279,998 (£28,554). Now even taking into consideration the British tax rates, I can't see any Brit paying £28,554 for a 147. So how is Britain paying higher rates for cars than anybody else? Sure there are taxes on top, but there are taxes on top of the Danish and Dutch cars too.
--Toronto
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

For the record, Motor Trend* is reporting the pricing as follows:
2008 Mustang Base RWD 2-Dr Coupe V6 $19,490 (£9,617)
2008 Mustang GT RWD 2-Dr Coupe V8 $26,080 (£12,929)

In other words, Canadians are getting soaked, so if somebody wants the right to whine it should be us. And we don't even have the "justification" that they have to convert the steering wheel to the other side of our cars.

Besides, why would you guys even car how much American cars are in the States? As I keep hearing here, they're old crappy pieces of dated mechanicals with ugly styling and cheap plastics. By that reasoning, they should be paying customers to take them.
--Toronto

*(I can't get the official Ford pricing as I can't get through Ford's crappy, flash heavy, poorly laid-out American site).

Last edited by Toronto Spider; 11-03-08 at 00:45.
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

I am thinking of renaming the thread "Rip off Britain/Canada and any other country out there with outrageous car prices".

Thoughts?
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

You can leave Canada out, unless CG wants to come in and rant about pricing in Canada. I've said what I needed to say. As far as I'm concerned prices are too high here and we're paying a premium, but I've no desire to moan about it. Most of the cars I'd be looking to buy aren't sold in the UK or the rest of Europe, so there is no point me going on about them.

Besides I didn't start this thread, I just pointed out a different interpretation of the prices than the original poster had. Mind you it's easy for me to do that as I'm on the outside looking in.
--Toronto
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Re: Rip-off Britain Again

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Originally Posted by Toronto Spider View Post
Partly that is my fault. I initially misunderstood the original post a bit. In my defence the writing isn't exactly clear. I originally thought the poster was complaining about the price of a Mustang in the UK. I realize now that the price is the American equivalent -- I think the "rip-off UK" title threw me a bit also.
No problem, I expect we would be paying about $60-70K for a Mustand versus the $26K they pay in the USA - and the version we would get is still RHD!
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