Caught On Speed Camera - Alfa Romeo Forum
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View Poll Results: Should You Be Obliged To Say Who Was Driving?
Yes - name the offender 17 36.96%
No - it should be for them to prove 28 60.87%
Other - please explain 1 2.17%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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(Post Link) post #1 of 45 Old 29-06-07 Thread Starter
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Caught On Speed Camera

I see the 2 who were arguing in the European Court that their right from self incrimination was being abused by the UK Law what, put simply, says you have to identify who was driving the car if it is caught on speed camera - have lost.

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Do people believe that those, who's cars are caught speeding, should identify who was driving?
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Therefore the reason for front facing cameras.... I think they should have to prove it.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

How exactly do you "prove that you didn't know who was driving?"

I think the only grounds that this woudl apply to is if you had reported the car as stolen.

Otherwise, where would the driver have gotten the keys from, meaning you could never actually prove that you didn't know the driver (although, I suppose you could give your keys to a mate, who then hands them to someone else, in which case that someone else may be someone you don't know, but you will then have stiched up your mate, as he or she could clearly not use the arguement that they didn't knwo who the driver was!)

We need a similar provision as they have in USA - the 5th Amendment - a right to stay silent in circumstances which could in fact end up leading to self incrimination.

If I am right, in the USA, the copper will actually issue teh penalty on the spot, and not rely on a photo take remotely?

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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

i see the cases have since been thrown out...and it should be for the authorities to prove who was driving...
 
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

This whole argument stems to the point in the article that if you are questioned by the authorities, "You have the right to remain silent..." When speed cameras were first introduced this argument washed and you could get away with it. Like everything else though the public became wise to it and too many cases weren't being penalised, eventually this get out clause was quashed.

If you are the guilty party take responsibility. At the end of the day most people speed from time to time, so you've slipped up and been caught. It's your own mistake, deal with it, pay the fine move on.

If it's someone else driving, bearing in mind most people wouldn't be covered to drive your car unless it is with your expressed permission (so how you wouldn't know who was driving is beyond the realms of reality), then why on earth should you cover for them and risk facing a penalty?
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Name and shame. Also if you get done take it on the chin - none of all this 'I was done speeding and I need to know how to get off'. If you don't want points don't speed. Simple.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Where something is unfair it is quite legitimate to challenge it, no matter that you might feel distasate for speeders trying get off.

A report issued last week identified that
a) Speed cameras were not having the effect predicted in reducing fatalities
b) The administration of speed cameras was wildly inconsistent from area to area, thus making residents of some parts of the country far more severely dealt with than others.

We all know that behind the good intentions of Speed cameras..to reduce fatalities, they are also part of an ideology that simply identifies 'Speed' as dangerous regardless of time and location, which is what has led to cameras in unsuitable locations..in addition to the many in suitable locations.

All the challenges we see are simply trying to call the system to account, as to date it seems to me the Road Safety Partnerships write their own propaganda and are virtually unaccountable to anyone. I don't see much objective analysis going on, leading one to suspect they are just self perpetuating bureaucracies.

Reluctantly therefore I support these challenges. I do not condone stupid/dangerous or inapropriate speeding.Quite the contrary in fact.

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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

I think you should name the driver- the car is registered to you and is your responsibility. If you are innocent you should prove it.
However this shows that a couple of guy's in a patrol car are more effective at Policeing this sort of thing. If your caught behind the wheel, then your driving - Simple. Also a patrol car is a deterrent to speeding, not a way of generating income, It can also differentiate reasons for speeding, How many speed camera's have escorted people to hospital, for example?
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason156 View Post
If you are innocent you should prove it.
Is not "innocent until proven guilty" in effect in the UK? It is in Greece.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfasud.ti View Post
Is not "innocent until proven guilty" in effect in the UK? It is in Greece.
I think that depends on wether or not your guilty
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

everybody knows who is driving a car that they own at all time? really?

we recieved a notice regarding speeding before when the event was a week or more previous and as everybody in our family are insured to drive my dads ppl carrier he hadda spend a fair bit of time trying to find out who was driving at that exact time on that day and as its right beside our house every person who had the van that day had gone past the camera. could have been anyone of 5 ppl. initailly i was accused being the youngest driver but luckily i knew i wasnt driving at all that day as i was nursing a hangover all day mates b'day was the night before. dad ended up taking the points even tho its highly unlikely he's ever speeded in his life an we all paid the fine. he didnt have the option of saying he is 78 and cant remember what he had for dinner the day before never mind who was driving his van on a date and time more than a week earlier.

(i think it was my ma)

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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

As I said Decky, a policeman in a car would have known who was driving!!
As with any generalisation there are cases where there could be a genuine problem - I believe we should respect the law as it stands, or attempt to change it via pressure groups etc. My real gripe is that speed camers are there to make money, not to reduce speeding.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

I find this decision more than a bit worrying..."threw out their claim that the right to remain silent and the right not to incriminate oneself are "absolute rights".

It may only be speed cameras now but the implications are scary.

Should we be "forced" to give evidence? That REALLY worries me.

As for the arguments about speed cameras, it's been done here before and I'm firmly in the camp which thinks the Police have the responsibility to prove guilt, as in other cases they bring. Why should the guilty party help them, unless they want to of course!

When faced with photographic evidence which is unclear would those who argue we should take responsibility, own up and say it was them? It IS possible to not know who was driving at a particular time or point in a journey.

Speed cameras are not 100% accurate, Police make errors, databases are inaccurate, cars are ringed (yes it's happened!) Police don't follow due process etc...so I would certainly fight any claim made against me, there are FAR too many chances for errors and therefore miscarriages of justice.

Why roll over?

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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

id rather see more patrols and less cameras myself, a camera doesnt pick up anything except speed and round here its not speed thats the problem its ppl accelerating extremely hard past schools to show off their exhausts to their mates, cornering at the limits of grip, weaving in and out of traffic etc all of which a patrol car would pull the driver for but a camera misses.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Innocent until proven guilty IMHO.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Speeding fines are just a cheap way to raise revenue to pay for policing etc. The police/state will always chop & change the rules to suit themselves.

Time to emigrate
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

I read some notes on a test case somewhere and the key is the notice form that you are sent.

I'm no expert on these matters but if i recall correctly the fact that you complete it and and sign it means that you are submitting evidence, even though you havent formally been cautioned.

If you send the notice back with the driver details on a seperate peice of paper then you have done what is required by law, but the peice of paper may not be used as evidence.

Not sure how this came out, but if i can find the details i'll post them. Obviosly this only applies if you are not the driver at the time.


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Last edited by mannerj; 02-07-07 at 12:22.
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(Post Link) post #18 of 45 Old 02-07-07 Thread Starter
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by mannerj View Post
I read some notes on a test case somewhere and the key is the notice form that you are sent.

I'm no expert on these matters but if i recall correctly the fact that you complete it and and sign it means that you are submitting evidence, even though you havent formally been cautioned.

If you send the notice back with the driver details on a seperate peice of paper then you have done what is required by law, but the peice of paper may not be used as evidence.

Not sure how this came out, but if i can find the details i'll post them. Obviosly this only applies if you are not the driver at the time.


John
Hmmmm...not sure why a piece of paper that you submitted can't be used as evidence
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

I think you should have to name who was driving...
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Burden of proof is on the prosecutor IMHO
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

IMO if you choose to break the speed limit then you should have the balls to own up. I drive at the limit whatever road i'm on, rarely do i go above it, I'm fed up to the back teeth having eejits overtake no matter what the conditions of the road are, or what the speed limit is.

I'm glad that case went against them, just imagine the carnage on the roads if they'd won, every boy (& girl) racer would have a field day.

Oh & yes everybody should know who's driving their car, i'm legally responsible for any car registered in my name, damn right i know who's driving it!

If someone breaks the law, then get the points, pay the fine & grow up!
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

When we had speed cameras set up (they've been curtailed here) the owner was sent the ticket and the fine/points were put on the their licence. Didn't matter who was driving. You would have to tell them it wasn't you but either way the points/fine were given.

We only have set cameras now at high crash intersections.
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by toby2449 View Post
If someone breaks the law, then get the points, pay the fine & grow up!
Well, said
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Hint for those driving in France:

I've only briefly looked into this, but from
what I gather, the French cameras only
take one photo.

So if there is more than 1 car in the picture,
the theory is they discard it.


I got flashed a while back and (fingers crossed)
haven't got a ticket.
 
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Re: Caught On Speed Camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per View Post
How exactly do you "prove that you didn't know who was driving?"
The standard response to that question is that you write a letter, saying you have made extensive enquiries amongst family members & friends who all had access to the car on the date & time of the incident, but you have been unsuccessful in identifying the driver.
They don't like it, and will threaten further action, proof of insurance for the other party of (anonymous) drivers... etc etc... but the Road Traffic Act only calls for you to make reasonable enquiries, and moan and threaten as they may, they are forced to accept this statement.

This I know.
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