Diesel Power hits the BTCC !! - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
International Motor Sport F1, Rally, Tourers, whatever...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 61 Old 27-02-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Thumbs Up Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

BTCC

Shame it's a Panzerwagen !!
nomad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
ode
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
ode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cheshire
Posts: 2,021

Member car:

A Fiat

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

I love it when someone tries something different, like when Volvo entered the 850 estate all those years ago, that was great.

Good luck to them
ode is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 61 Old 27-02-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ode View Post
like when Volvo entered the 850 estate all those years ago, that was great.
The best bit about that was in their first season's parade laps... where the drivers had toy collie dogs sat on the roof with them !! (Rydell was even wagging the tail of his at Snetterton !! )
nomad is offline  
Nev
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

So what other gadgets does it
have apart from the automatic,
James-Bond-style smoke screen?


 
(Post Link) post #5 of 61 Old 27-02-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nev View Post
So what other gadgets does it have apart from the automatic, James-Bond-style smoke screen?
sleep-058.gif
nomad is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Trailbraker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ireland
County: -
Posts: 5,179

Member car:

156 GTA

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Do the diesels get any rule breaks like at le-mans?
Since the petrols are capped at power to 300bhp (I think) by the current rules if the diesel can get anywhere near that and get more torque it could be very competitive - it shouldn't be too hard to tune a turbo diesel engine up to to fairly serious power.
I wonder do they have torque limits for the diesel?

Last edited by Trailbraker; 27-02-07 at 23:38.
Trailbraker is offline  
Status: The BSD says konnichiwa
Global Mod Team
 
BigFoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Japan
County: Tokyo
Posts: 114,689
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Wasn't Alfa gonna run 2 diesel 147s?
BigFoot is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 61 Old 28-02-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailbraker View Post
Do the diesels get any rule breaks like at le-mans?
Power outputs are controlled by the size of air intake on the petrols aren't they ?? (If they had bigger intakes they'd have more power than the 280 ish that they have at the moment !! )

This is all I could find regarding the diesels...

Regs

nomad is offline  
alfafamily
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

This can only be a good thing and will put BTCC back in the news a bit more for allowing something different.
At this point we can only dream of diesel alfas competing, but surely they could be competitive?
 
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Trailbraker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ireland
County: -
Posts: 5,179

Member car:

156 GTA

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

cheers Nomad
Trailbraker is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Not Happy Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Very bas news
(Turbo) Diesel engines do not belong in racing. As a TV journalist remarked at le Mans: the Audi sounds like a vacuum cleaner with a cold ...

Sound is also part of racing (non-turbo engnes sound better anyway)

This will probably be a hype for a couple of years and disappear again, as without modifications (like at le Mans !!! with all the restrictions implied on non-Diesel engines) Turbo Diesel engines can NOT win from petrol cars; everybody knows that. So I ask you: why do we try to make something that can not win without cheating, participate in a sport that is a bout winning ??

Next thing: women taking part in Rugby league ? With a new rule: they are not allowed to be touched....
Lionheart is offline  
alfa_147_jtd_16v
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB156V6 View Post
Turbo Diesel engines can NOT win from petrol cars; everybody knows that.

Sorry but what rubbish! You have already hit the nail on the head with regards to Lemans and if you were a true racing fan you would know that in the VW Cup Lloyd Allard often wins in his TDi Golf (1.9) against the R32 Golf (3.2V6) driven by Paul Taylor. Then there are the VW Caddy's which also perform well, despite their poor aerodynamics.

Last edited by alfa_147_jtd_16v; 01-03-07 at 12:32.
 
Status: PSN ID: Jack155Q4
AO Gold Member
 
AlfaJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 6,919

Member car:

1993 Alfa 155 Q4

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Diesel is the future if your looking for bags of grunt
AlfaJack is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 61 Old 01-03-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa_147_jtd_16v View Post
if you were a true racing fan you would know that in the VW Cup Lloyd Allard often wins in his TDi Golf (1.9) against the R32 Golf (3.2V6) driven by Paul Taylor. Then there are the VW Caddy's which also perform well, despite their poor aerodynamics.
Yes indeed... Lloyds motor is one awesome beast !!
nomad is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Idea Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Bullocks mates: 4 cylinder engine is much lighter then a 6 cylinder: therefore better entering a corner. No compare therefore.

Also: the Diesel you mention is a TURBO engine. If you add a turbo to the petrol engine it is ALWAYS more powerfull.

If you can show a 2 liter turbo diesel car that is faster on a track (full race circuit) then, for example, a Subaru Sti or Mitsubishi EVO MR (both equipped with 2 liter petrol turbo), I buy you a very nice bottle of wine The reason why I can do you this offer ? quite simple: Diesel can NOT match a petrol car. Why watch a good number 2 if you can watch number 1 ? That's why Diesel should not be allowed entering in racing, as it will kill the sport.

Technically: Diesel S*CKS for a race car.
Aesthetically: Diesel is an ugly monster.
Environment: (with a partical filter) it's OK.
Fun factor: not even close to a Petrol car.
Sound: no comparison
Lionheart is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 61 Old 02-03-07 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
County: -
Posts: 43,564

Member car:

RRS TDV8 HSE

Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Glad to see your keeping an open mind about it !!

There's no way the cars you mention would race in the same category so your comments are nonsense.

The whole idea of the VW Cup is good close racing in different 'classes' and IT WORKS !!

It is a FACT that Llloyd Allard's car WINS races againsn't the competition be whatever it is.. PETROL OR DIESEL in his class !!

I suggest you check your facts before (and racing series rules, regulations and results ) before slagging off another member's post !!
nomad is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

@Nomad: sad to see you still don't get it: depending on regulations a turbo diesel car can win. Under normal conditions however everybody (with some common sense) knows that a petrol car always wins over a diesel (for example: 2 liter diesel loses form 2 liter petrol; 2 liter turbo diesel loses from 2 liter turbo petrol etc.). Period.

Fully subjective (read: personal opinion): why watch VW on a race track anyway ? Some of the ugliest cars ever produced are not really worth watching...

Next to that: diesel car's will ruin more then many people are aware of at this moment for the future...
Luckily some people do understand (like mr Clarkson as 1 of your country men )
Lionheart is offline  
Status: One foot in, one foot out!
AO Platinum Member
 
zulu ferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: wgc
County: herts
Posts: 42,278
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

AB156VC, can't enter comments as comprehensive or as technical as yourself,as I was designed a very simple chap. Have been very puzzled over the excitement that people have for Diesels.Much more sophisticated than originally, but I still keep thinking of them as commercial workhorses. These posts are excellent, even if I do not understand most of the content.Keep them coming please!
zulu ferret is offline  
Status: frenzied burrowing
AO Platinum Member
 
Fraser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: South Lanarkshire
Posts: 19,680
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

[QUOTE=AB156V6;946321Next to that: diesel car's will ruin more then many people are aware of at this moment for the future...
[/QUOTE]

How so?

Diesel is much more energy dense than petrol and is, therefore, a more efficient fuel. You need to burn far less to get the same power output. The turbo is about delivery of that power. A turbo engined petrol car would generate more horsepower because it can spin at much higher revs, using much more fuel, not because it is more efficient.

@Zulu ferret - you need to be trying a 2.4 JTDm if you think it's a workhorse.
Fraser is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser View Post
How so?

Diesel is much more energy dense than petrol and is, therefore, a more efficient fuel. You need to burn far less to get the same power output. The turbo is about delivery of that power. A turbo engined petrol car would generate more horsepower because it can spin at much higher revs, using much more fuel, not because it is more efficient.

@Zulu ferret - you need to be trying a 2.4 JTDm if you think it's a workhorse.
On a racetrack it's all about revving. (on the road that's different )

I have owned the 2.4 Diesel (driven one that had been chipped too), and yes it's nice for a diesel, no question. (currently my daily is a bi-turbo diesel, but the next car will certainly not be a diesel anymore)
But no: for fun-factor, sound, thrill, speed between corners etc. it can make it to a 3.0 or 3.2 V6 petrol engine...

Are you coming over to the Nurburgring too (during the AO Nurburgring week-end) in May (or earlier) ? If you do: we can try to make a comparison

@ZF: thanks

Diesel development has taken big steps last years due to the demand (cheaper to run...) but no replacement for a good petrol engine. As a workhorse they're fine/comfortable etc., for a hobby/fun/race car: no way.
Lionheart is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 2,491
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB156V6 View Post
Are you coming over to the Nurburgring too (during the AO Nurburgring week-end) in May (or earlier) ? If you do: we can try to make a comparison
I'd imagine your 444 laps of the 'ring might have more to do with how quick you are than what car you are driving , personally I have been quicker than many a petrol turbo of similar configuration and power output around numerous racetracks as well as a few that were a lot more powerful, only loosing out typically on long straights where the petrol power advantage and gearing comes into play.

I wouldn't underestimate what fun can be had in a diesel, I've certainly had plenty, I have been looking to move back to a petrol mostly for the aural experience and outright speed on trackdays, its quite annoying to batter someone all over the fun bits and get blown away on a straight, I have to say though a lot of the cars I have driven as replacements just don't seem good enough over what I have to warrant changing and I have to look for some proper fast cars that deliver on the speed sensation as well as being genuinely quick.

My GT JTD has been one of the biggest suprises out of anything I have owned and I have had quite a few good motors in my time, most have had similar if not more levels of modification, I guess the suprise probably comes from my expectation of the car, I bought a diesel through necessity rather than chioce, it was a diesel and it looked nice, being a petrolhead I wasn't too bothered how it drove, it was bound to be rubbish in comparison to what I have had before because its a diesel, I took it on its first trackday mainly because I had paid for it months beforehand when I had a GTA and it seemed a shame to waste it, the GT raised a few eyebrows that day and my whole view of the car chnaged as I was blasting past all manner of icons, I didn't even have the good Alfa diesel engine.

They are not bad cars, really, some people especially on this site are just too blinkered to see past their preconceptions.

Last edited by sandys; 03-03-07 at 21:17.
sandys is offline  
Status: frenzied burrowing
AO Platinum Member
 
Fraser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: South Lanarkshire
Posts: 19,680
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB156V6 View Post
As a workhorse they're fine/comfortable etc., for a hobby/fun/race car: no way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandys View Post
some people especially on this site are just too blinkered to see past their preconceptions.
@sandys - now wherever did you get that idea?

Fraser is offline  
Status: -
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Only 1 big difference: in my case it is not a preconception, as I;'ve had several diesels too (and some of them have seen the Nurburgring too)

Entering a corner needs a car which does not have a heavy nose (therefore my current V6 156 is not even close to ideal too...) for ultimate cornering speed. Diesels are always quite heavy which is a disadvantage: mainly for fun-factor as I want a car to turn in crisp. (take an Alfa 75 TwinSpark, put an RS Racing suspension set under the car, and drive around a circuit. Then take an Alfa 156/159 2,4Jtd(m) and feel the difference: the old 75TS will be MUCH more fun then the heavy front turbo diesel to drive.
Seperate to the fun: as a heavy turbo diesel in the front also gives plenty more understeer it looses speed to; exiting a corner it has the advantage of the turbo (read: torque) but how much fun is that ?

I rather drive with an 18 year old Peugeot 309 Gti with 130horses which is a delight to drive on the track, despite the small amount of ponies, (and slightly below 9 minutes in the Nurburgring (4 seconds on a quite day ) ) then a heavy diesel.
Lionheart is offline  
Status: frenzied burrowing
AO Platinum Member
 
Fraser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: South Lanarkshire
Posts: 19,680
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

We'll see how the diesels get on on the BTCC. I guess if they didn't think they would succeed they wouldn't enter them
Fraser is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Jason 156's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: South Yorkshire
Posts: 1,490
Re: Diesel Power hits the BTCC !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB156V6 View Post
take an Alfa 75 TwinSpark, put an RS Racing suspension set under the car, and drive around a circuit. Then take an Alfa 156/159 2,4Jtd(m) and feel the difference:
But you could say that about any old light car " Take X light car and put X uprated suspension on it and drive it round a circuit. Then take X completely bog standard heavy car and feel the difference!"

It's like saying a 156 TS is crap and no good for real driving on a track compared to the ETCC 156's.....it's obvious they are going to be better!
Jason 156 is offline  
Closed Thread

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Misc Lounges > Community Discussions > International Motor Sport

Tags
btcc , diesel , hits , power

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OBD II Codes Smaky Alfa 145 & 146 62 4 Weeks Ago 13:36
Bloke fails to get Gore's film banned... Nev Way Off Topic 31 13-10-07 10:21

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome