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3K views 33 replies 17 participants last post by  TonyGr 
#1 · (Edited)
My parents got a PCN through from a London borough yesterday. The photo clearly shows a car with their number plate - but it isn't their car. In fact, it's a completely different make and colour.

Thankfully, this should make it easy to contest. I have sent a rejection back to them explaining this.

But what do we think has happened? Has the owner of this car just picked a number plate at random to put on their car to avoid charges? But surely if so they would aim for a similar car - otherwise they might get away with automatic stuff, but the first time they pass a police car with an ANPR system it'll show up on their screen as the wrong car type and immediately raise suspicion?

Is the reality that the owner of the other car has probably just messed up their number plate and got a single digit wrong somewhere?
 
#3 ·
The plate picture was very clear, didn't look tampered.

The council must have consulted DVLA to get my parents address to send the PCN - but they had make down as 'unknown' in their paperwork strangely.
 
#4 ·
A couple of personal anecdotes relating to this:

When I first left school and worked in a garage allocating pool cars someone requested a particular car quoting the reg. I told them that we didn't have that vehicle and was taken to the parking lot where low and behold there it was. A closer inspection showed different plates front and rear. The body shop had put the wrong plate on following a repair.

A few years ago I received a PCN for doing 78mph in a 50 limit. The reg and the car details were correct but at the time I was 60 miles away and the car was in a "secure car park" covered by cameras. I was lucky to be able to prove my whereabouts as I was signing in to a secure building only a couple of minutes from the time of the incident and offered this as evidence. Therefore it must have been somebody else using the car was the reply. I offered the fact that the car was parked and covered by cameras and that I could account for the mileage on the odometer therefore not my car. It took several weeks of proving innocence in this case. I eventually received a letter saying that no further action would be taken.

It seems that once a camera has got a reg number then you're assumed guilty until proven innocent.
 
#5 ·
They got another 3 PCNs in quick succession, so I think we can conclude that the guy knew what he was doing, and had a false plate so he could get away with parking wherever he wanted.

Strange that he didn't pick a number from an identical car though, you could find one in seconds by simply looking on autotrader.

In the end we reported to the MET who put the plate on their database to be stopped if seen. We haven't had any more PCNs for a fortnight so I suspect he's been nicked.
 
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#6 ·
The annoying ones were from councils who allow you to pay the fine over their website, but to 'make representation' (i.e. tell them they're wrong) you have to send a letter by post.
 
#8 ·
Its strange how there are now many companies who can supply plates without you having to supply any information nowadays.

In the past, I used to knock up plates at the BMW dealership I worked at, they needed 2 forms of ID, V5 doc, all of which had to be photocopied and kept on file - the actual system (Hills) required you to tick a bunch of boxes confirming you'd seen the information before it would even print the plate.

I was under the impression this was a requirement by law, along with plates displaying the dealer/supplier and the relevant BS info for the plate's reflective material.

The last pair of plates I bought, just had to enter my reg online (could have been any reg), select what info I wanted put on the plate, which could have been none, and they were sent via post without me having to provide any information.

The stick-on one I just bought for the front end came from eBay, is the legal size, spacing and font is standard and is reflective - its like a regular plate, but a sticker - again no information or proof of identity required.

Unless the loophole is they have to be stated as for 'off-road use only' or classed as show plates.
 
#9 ·
I believe that is indeed the loophole.
 
#10 ·
To be legal plates need to have a BSI approval mark, as well supplying plate maker postcode and name.

Even if the plate is correct in every other way it should fail MOT's etc.

In practice is anyone ever going to know? It isn't like the police would see it as you drive past or cameras would be able to see that it was missing.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I recently bought some plates for Mrs. V’s car from Halfords, they needed several official forms, my identification, a DNA swab and a litre of blood, and then it took 40 minutes and several “Have you done the plates yet?” to get them done which takes about 5 minutes. ��

The son in law bought his from eBay, half the price and no questions asked. ������
 
#12 ·
So Newham council - the great bunch of blithering dipsticks - have rejected my parents letter explaining that it isn't their car. Despite being sent proof of this happening in the council next door, and the police number, and the fact that ITS A DIFFERENT CAR IN A DIFFERENT COLOUR.

To accept this rather salient fact, they want my parents to take photos of their car from every possible angle and mail them to the council - once again refusing to use any technology at all.

I will be ringing them in the morning and trying to patiently ask them why the hell they're making a pair of septuagenarians jump through ridiculous hoops when they could very easily prove to themselves that it's not the same car by consulting the DVLA data which they've ALREADY CHECKED to get their address in the first place.
 
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#15 ·
So Newham council - the great bunch of blithering dipsticks - have rejected my parents letter explaining that it isn't their car. Despite being sent proof of this happening in the council next door, and the police number, and the fact that ITS A DIFFERENT CAR IN A DIFFERENT COLOUR.

To accept this rather salient fact, they want my parents to take photos of their car from every possible angle and mail them to the council - once again refusing to use any technology at all.

I will be ringing them in the morning and trying to patiently ask them why the hell they're making a pair of septuagenarians jump through ridiculous hoops when they could very easily prove to themselves that it's not the same car by consulting the DVLA data which they've ALREADY CHECKED to get their address in the first place.


Get Watchdog on the case, or better still the Daily Mail or the local paper with your parents holding the letter while looking glum and pointing at the car!
 
#16 ·
That is ridiculous.

If it went to court I would imagine any judge would be really pi**ed off with them.
 
#17 ·
I rang and complained, but eventually had to settle on following their requirements. Apparently they give the DVLA a reg number and the only info they get back is the name and address. Doesn't change the fact that I can use the reg myself to find out the make, model and colour in about 30 seconds with an MOT history check.

For what it's worth, I put a strong complaint in the letter to them.
 
#19 ·
With enforcement outsourced to cameras, this is really big business in London.

Stick a random plate on your car and you’ve got 21 days of free parking, bus lane abuse and speeding on the A40 elevated section. At the end of 21 days, swap onto a new set. You have zero chance of being caught by a policeman. The car is probably stolen and uninsured as well.

London councils are staffed by morons - literally people who are too thick to get a decent job in London. I’d let them take it to court for a laugh.
 
#21 ·
Why 21 days?

Oh, because of the time taken for a PCN to go out, the real car owner to report it as cloned, and the ANPR cameras on police cars to start looking for it?
 
#20 ·
Our on-street residents parking is administered in Sheffield. I contested a ticket as they’d failed to send a reminder. They said they don’t but they had sent a reminder for our other car. There’s a phone on the wall in the Council building but hardly worth using it though.
 
#22 ·
Yes - you blow through your first speed camera, the clock starts.

+10 days - PCN lands on the doorstep
+14 days - real owner of number plate says “wasn’t me”
+18 days - police ask for proof
+21 days is the first point at which plod might be interested in the number plate.

Plate goes in the bin, new ones made. Clock starts again.

Next time I’m a passenger on the A40 elevated, I’m going to run the numbers of the cars that bomb through at 60 - there are loads. They’ll all be cloned.

We did this from the pub when the local travellers invaded the village green. 60% were either “not known” to DVLA, or referred to a different car. Including the rather nice 911 that was doing donuts on the grass. Police were there, didn’t give a ****.
 
#23 ·
Some more news on the amazing ability of Newham council to be a pack of pillocks.

They've sent another PCN through. Despite the previous letter we sent with pictures of the car from all 4 sides confirming that it's not the same car. Despite the letter they sent back confirming that they now knew this.

This is a new PCN for a new penalty. They've sent it in October for an infringement in April, and the first letter they've sent states that time is already up, they're not allowed to contest it, and they just have to pay.

My mum has rung them today, and been told that they've got to send through a set of 4 pictures again! Apparently there's nothing they can do. They can't refer back to their own records which already prove that this is a load of crap.
 
#26 ·
To be fair, you need to know what you're taking someone to court for, so if your folks have written to them telling them it's not their car, then the council has to prove that it is.

If it was me, I'd go to court and make them make pillocks for themselves (while putting in a claim for the airfare for "having to return from the Maldives slightly early").

Once it starts costing the council money, then they might change what they do.. otherwise it's easier to just issue the tickets.


Ralf S.
 
#24 ·
That’s frustrating!
We have permit parking and the admin is in Sheffield. Any communication is most unhelpful and the last dealings, trying to get a dispensation for a plasterer to leave his van near to our house was almost obstructive and so unhelpful as to be hoping they could write a ticket. Before that the permit expired on one car and when I said we hadn’t been sent a reminder they said they never send one. They had for the other permit. You try to talk face to face at the office where it used to be dealt with an you’re pointed to a phone on the wall. It’s all run by a contract company so it’s hardly in their interest to serve us residents.
 
#25 ·
^ Privatisation and outsourcing at its best.

A vulnerable person trying to make her own way in life took on a flat in the home counties. We worked out subsequently the previous tenant had done a midnight, didn't update his address on any records anywhere, and repeatedly drove in the London congestion zone without paying.

Before we'd established this, a debt collection firm sent threatening letters, basically demanding personal data and proof from said lady that she wasn't the offender, or else they'd send round bailiffs. She'd already had her birth certificate stolen when it was sent to a council for other reasons, and didn't dare send anybody anything.

Both I and the letting agent phoned the collection agency to testify but they refused to desist. Fortunately, the lady got used to binning their letters and in the end they gave up.

The real nonsense is that the Greater London Authority, police, DVLA etc could have caught him easily. He was all over London, having his number plate filmed.
 
#27 ·
That would involve us having to go to London to attend though surely? A bit of cutting off our noses to spite our faces?

I tried to ring them today. Their automated line is designed expressly to make it utterly impossible to speak to a person.

So I have left a message to their facebook team, and I have raised a complaint through their website.

I also, by dint of scouring their website, found a way to challenge a PCN online. There was no mention of this method in any of their correspondence. So I have used that too.
 
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#28 ·
They probably get this quite a lot of the time, and they bank on innocent victims of cloning paying up anyway as they don't want the stress and hassle.
 
#29 ·
I suspect so. Theior systems seemed actively designed to try to discourage genuine challenges to the PCNs. I mean, what's the exucse for it being possible to pay it online, but not possible to challenge it?
 
#31 ·
To be fair, it's probably more incompetence than deliberate. I've worked with a few government agencies and when they put the system in, I bet that designing the spec' was given to someone who works in the enforcement department who just recycled the manual process used for issuing the bill and receiving the payment.

I just doubt that anyone else asked the question "what if there's a case of mistaken identity/clone etc.)". In the past you might have phoned them up.. but when they put the new phones in, nobody remembered that there might be queries to the PCN department (since it's "all done electronically"). It's usual "big departments" 2-dimensional thinking by not very bright employees.

Ralf S.
 
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