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Mechanical engineering of Tonale.

12K views 113 replies 15 participants last post by  Alfa Romeo 2600 
#1 · (Edited)
This is meant to be a thread for the- possibel - mechanical development of Tonale.

Probably they had a go ahead of Project beginning 2019. I.e. resources incl. money was approved based on a pre-study. Likely project timing is then 30 month - SOP july 1 2021.

INFO is that T will be based on current JEEP Compass architecture- which is good and bad.

Good: reasonabel timing and investments.

Bad: without a major redesign, T will not be good enough for me.

Crucial is - to me - rear suspension, which - if Alfa handling - will need Alfa rear suspension.

I believe they can get away with an improved front McPherson.

To be competitive they need one 300+ bhp engine.

Compass does have a 9-speed AUTO, which, probably, will be OK.

A 6-speed manual is needed - I know nothing about availability.

AWD is a given - probably also FWD - at least for low torque application.

Later - probably - there will be various types of electrified versions.

Current architecture does not include aluminium structure/chassis. Hopefully - at least - IRS will be aluminium.

Currently I give it a 50% chance, that I will buy.
 
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#8 ·
TI - have you tried a modern AUTO - like e.g. ZF-8 - with paddles and stick. I thought paddles would be great, but ended up with using the stick. You will fast get spoiled not to have a clutch to bother with.

Only problem is to remember what gear I am using, and since Stelvio Quadrifoglio does it better than me - a 510 bhp 3/4 Ferrari engine never let you down - I stopped using MANUAL.
 
#13 ·
My last G was a TCT. It was ok really but I really prefer manual. I've ridden in cars with the ZF-8 and it's ok. The missus and a couple of advanced driving assessors have commented that I change gear smoother than the auto. Just personal preference. I suppose I'll have to succumb to modern fads eventually.

Having 510 bhp is an advantage as you're rarely short of power. Most of the people I teach advanced driving to have less than 200 bhp to hand and it's a case of showing when auto is best and when to make the most of manual mode.
 
#9 ·
Yes.. all the new cars are auto-boxed these days.

It apparently helps emissions (the car's brains do the Greta thing better than mere mortals can) although in the old days, automatics used to burn more benzina since they were just very clunky and only had 3 forward speeds or something.

If the Tonale is an Alfa'd Jeep Renegade/Compass then it will not be quite so "premium" as Giulvio but the trick then is for Alfa to decide how to price it. They can either admit/remember that it is actually Jeep-Evo... and so therefore must cost £20k....or they can spend extra to get rid of the more mundane/functional Renegade/Compass parts, replace them with more shiny and then charge £30k for it.

Sadly Alfa's historical (pre-Sergio) track record suggests that they will forget it is actually Jeep-Evo.. imagine that it is shiny, shiny rather than being *actually* shiny, shiny... and charge £30k for it. The new fella (Big Lad?) has to hold his nerve and price it on its merits.


Ralf S.
 
#10 ·
Ralf, the platform/architecture is - obviously - not top class, but given time and money it should be possibel to make a vehicle with good handling/performance - although not full Giulia/Stelvio class.

Since I believe they are shooting at BMW X2, price should (need to) be close to it. Interior and electronics/gizmos are not architecture related.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't personally get hung up on the 500X/L/Renegade architecture... usually it's the car magazines that bang on about it, since they want you to buy a VW Karoq instead anyway.

The platform I think has bits that were conceived for the Giulietta (actually Fiat Bravo) so it might not be all from the 2020's... but that's like saying if I fitted a spark plug from a Leyland Mini in my car, it makes my car "ancient".

Fiat invented modular architecture for car platforms so I'd be quite confident that the car will have all the important stuff (suspension mainly) designed to suit the Tonale, even if some parts like the heater was the same as fitted to the Fiat 127 or whatever. Turn the dial, it heats up the car... what's to change?

The main thing is that Alfa should resist the urge to cheapen it too much.. and if they can't resist themselves... then try very hard to not charge top money for it.

I'd say that Alfa probably needs to start shifting volume a bit more, even at the expense of profit per car sold. More cars out there is just good for the brand image, the dealers, the factories, owners and prospective owners... and if they sell more they'll make the same profit as if they sold less with more margin. Not sure why Alfa doesn't ever quite throw the kitchen sink at what they think is their "volume" model.

Ralf S.
 
#14 ·
TI, if smooth gearshifts is your preference, you have 4 modes in a QF - from ultrasmooth to "slam-in". However I believe Tonale will not have all of them, but very probably the ultrasmooth=economy.

With a 510 bhp twin turbo Ferrari engine and an extremely well adapted ZF-8 you are NEVER short of power.
 
#18 ·
It's not just the smoothness, it's the control. I want to decide a gear not leave it up to something that will change gear part way round a corner. I know the ZF-8 can be incredibly smooth but I would still keep driving it in manual mode to get the control I want so I might as well have something with a manual box.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like the ZF-8 box. It's just personal preference that I like a proper stick shift.
 
#22 ·
Sadly most people faced with that choice are going to buy the equivalent BMW M car.

As much as I love the Giulia QV I don't think I will ever own one as I don't like autos. Or DCT/TCT/DSG for that matter.
 
#24 ·
Some of the inputs above have touched on the subject of economy. I.e Alfa Romeo economy. Hopefully the Stelvio has generated a positive cash flow - the Quadrifoglio very probably not - despite being "best car ever" - my personal evaluation. The "all-out" engineering in QF has - to my mind - not - unfortunately - payed off in volume of sales.

Very likely Alfa beancounters will push the issue and keep spending at a - relatively - tight budget. This might still enable an Alfa IRS and a 300+bhp engine, but no Torque Vectoring or Integrated Chassis Control.
 
#26 ·
It'll likely have two wheels driven by ICE and the other two driven by electric. That gives you AWD without any fancy engineering or extra weight. There's no chance of a manual either. It just doesn't work with the electric. The best will be flappy paddles, but don't expect them on the base model.

Don't worry about the platform too much. Many previous Alfas have been based on uninspiring platforms but driven well.

The price will be in the £30k mark due to the electric components on top of the ICE.

The name is interesting, its only in the UK that people have thought of Toenail, but that's because we are too lazy and ignorant to get foreign pronunciation correct. The number of people that mispronounce Alfa Romeo (***** Row-Me-Oh), Maserati (Maz-er-RAT-e), and Lamborghini (Lamb-boar-Gee-Knee) is scary up here in Yorkshire. We aren't the main market and it has the pass association so don't expect it to change.
 
#27 · (Edited)
MrMickS - interesting observations:
-electric RWD is certainly a possibility - however I don´t believe that`s mainstream- a bit too early - time will tell.
- I agree - the concern about name is UK only.

Also: Alfa need to come out with cars earning money: Tonale is supposedly a moneymaker: safe road is traditional SUV/crossover - then "electrification".
 
#33 ·
Symon, I don´t undestand. My experience from ZF-8 in both X4 335 and Stelvio Quadrifoglio, is that in MANUAL mode you can get same - or better - gearchange - without using a clutch. You can adjust speed/aggressiveness/smoothness of gearchange with the mode-selector.

As I have written before - the "perfect" tuning of AUTO and engine - in DYNAMIC - made it obsolete to use MANUAL in QF - Alfa/ZF did it better than I can.
 
#35 ·
This.

You just don't get the same level of driver engagement from an Auto/Dual clutch

It doesn't matter that they might be slightly faster.
 
#37 ·
My point was that ZF8 - manually shifted- is all the joy of a manual, but without the left foot. However I found out that in case of QF, the power AND match of the ZF8, was so good, I - primarily - used AUTO gearchange and dynamic. However dynamic is a bit rough with ice/snow and non-studded tyres, so I ended up with preferring my 9000 Turbo with non-studded tyres.
 
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