2.4jtdm bad vibration after injectors removed and cleaned/refurbed - Alfa Romeo Forum
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2.4jtdm bad vibration after injectors removed and cleaned/refurbed

Hi – Sorry if this is a bit long-winded, any thoughts on this gratefully received. My 166 2.4jtdm has performed very well the last 4 years. Purchased at 120,000km when I put new Cambelt on and changed the brake discs, it is beautiful car to drive, comfortable, effortless, still tight at 187,000km and…….. until two weeks ago no major expense at all.

Last summer I began to feel a slight engine judder on acceleration from 1200 to 2000rpm so because they are cheap and fitted in minutes, on a hunch I put a new EGR valve on which did not change anything. I also changed air and fuel filter. Problem was not horrendous, still getting 40+ mpg and still quite driveable due to massive torque but I kind of knew it was getting worse.

A couple of weeks back I went a stage further and got the ECUMultiscan software and a wireless ODB2 unit to hook up with ECU. (Free download version of this Software is really good by the way). This showed no errors in ECU memory and all parameters, fuel rail pressure, mass airflow etc in spec, however driving around town with a laptop in the car, the injector corrections went from in spec (< +/- 1.0mm3) to up to plus or minus 4 or 5 mm3 on all cyls except 2 which was closer to but not quite in spec. I know these figures are like really bad, so I figured all was not well with the injectors. The vibration from 1200rpm was now very apparent when going uphill, on a cold morning – not nearly as bad when warmed up. Engine always started fine and economy still good.

Original clutch still going strong but the release bearing and DM Flywheel had been on the way out last 2 months so decided to get that and clutch itself done and had the garage take out the injectors so that I could send to a Bosch Specialist for testing whilst the car was on still on the ramp. Results came back that injector units for Cyls 1 and 2 were well in spec but 3, 4 and 5 were just outside limits, so I went with a recommendation to refurbish these three.
Clutch is now a dream, car starts instantly still, but unfortunately the engine runs terribly at all RPM with horrendous vibration like a misfire under load. ECUmultiscan shows that all injector corrections are even worse than before. Car is not driveable because I am sure I will damage the engine if this is not fixed. Spent some time at the workshop today who are v helpful and they confirmed no errors stored in ECU and all important parameters like air mass flow, fuel rail pressure, turbo boost pressure in spec. Obviously first thoughts were, did the injector test/refurb go bad somehow? but given the problem leading up to this beforehand we are wondering if the bad corrections are the symptom of some other engine issue? The technician removed the intake connection on the manifold and looked into the inlet with a torch. As expected it looks well and truly coked and the swirl valves are jammed moreorless in the middle opening position - so that needs to be addressed. Even so I still find it hard to believe that it would make so much difference and it does not explain the stark difference between before and after the injectors were removed and refitted. I know that they went back in the right order as the injector codes in the ECU are the same as before and are still allocated to the original cylinders.

Very next step will be to do a cylinder compression check before I remove and clean the intake which will probably take me at least 2 days and a lot of swearing besides. That provide a better starting point for a diagnosis but the trouble is, unless someone knows differently, I cannot imagine that this could make such a big difference. Hence my slight reluctance to take the plunge.

I love the car and would rely like to hang on to it if possible. Not expecting anything other than commiseration but any shared experiences ideas welcome. Cheers Phil
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Have a good look at the crankshaft pulley, not the outer, rubberised vibration damper pulley that drives the power steering and air/con, the inner toothed pulley that drives the cambelt. You are looking for play in it. It bolts on to the crank with one bolt and use's a woodruff key to lock it into position allowing the cam timing to remain accurate. This woodruff key fails/wears, allowing play in the pulley and throws cam and fuel pump timing out. I'm not saying this is the problem, but it sounds exactly like what I went through some time ago, injectors refurbed, car ran worse, as the ecu had adjusted everything to suit the injectors worn injection pattern, then once they were set right, and the ecu went back to normal parameters, all hell broke loose. Valve met piston. New engine. My mileage at that time was 189,000 miles. Hope this helps, nothing worse than when a 2.4 is running poorly, because you know just how good it was.
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I guess it's still injector related, because if only cleaning the injectors made it worse, maybe they need calibration and new codes.
And it's not the first time, nor the last, that a injector cleaning get it worse
I know that some jtd ecus have an option to forget and re-learn the engine components like turbo,vacuum... maybe it needs an ecu reset.
Ensure that the actual injector codes are correctly set, if they put them in different order can cause a very rough engine.

I had the same problem with pulley and broken woodruff key, but was on my old 156, and by no means it was only an annoying vibration, it was the whole engine shaking like if had swallow a bunch of gravel through the intake!
Also the engine light was on, and reading the ecu showed error P1320.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk-To5q1x2g

As you see, this is not a mere vibration!

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Have a read of this thread and do some searches yourself for setting injector (trim) values.

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...-you-help.html
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Note that some MES users report that you can only set injector values with KKL cable and ELM will not work but that might be due to canbus / non canbus.

Multiecuscan - View topic - URGENT! Set new Injector code not possible Alfa 159
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Update

Many thanks dabyd64 (looks like I have the identical 166 TI and colour as yours) and to Hugh. I would never have thought about the crankshaft pulley but as it happens I think that will fit into my plan. Spent some time on the weekend thinking this through and a bit of research which may not be news to you guys but things now make a lot more sense to me.

Just to recap. engine was running a bit juddery when accelerating from 1300 to 2000rpm it slowly got worse over about 8 months before I decided to pull my finger out and get on top of it. Suspect number one was the injectors but after cleaning and refurbishing them engine is so bad I won't risk running it only for v short runs. Injectors were numbered before removal and are definitely back in the correct cylinders so no worries there. On the down side I expected to a get a new code for each one after the refurb. Unfortunately the Bosch rig that the company in England have doesn't have the facility to generate an IMA code. I should have checked with them before sending them but instead I just assumed that that was what was going to happen.

At the very moment that the Injectors were being refurbed I got the news from the garage that clutch and DMF were done but that I should be aware that the swirl flaps were seized. When I checked on forums I found a number of posts which went along the lines of......... Swirl Flaps seized, manifold very badly coked up engine hesitant juddering between 1000 and 2000rpm. That was my moment of clarity shall we say, when I realized that this was probably the main issue and not the injectors at all but it seemed pointless not to clean and refurb now that they were already on the test bench.

I spoke on the phone to Bosch Diesel Service here in Germany yesterday and they were very patient with me and explained that the code for each Injector that is generated at the time manufacture is a means of keeping the costs down. These things are insanely precise and to trim each one to a very tight tolerance is possible but would significantly increase costs. Instead they are manufactured to what is still by any standards a close tolerance. The few percent that don't make it are remanufactured or discarded and those that fall within the acceptable tolerance are mapped on the test machine and the IMA code is generated. This code is the knowledge that the ECU uses to correct the timings to achieve the manufacturers desired design specification for the injector type. Needless to say when you are making millions sometimes by pure chance you manage to make an injector which is perfect and actually needs a neutral code. They said that many people buy a new injector or two and fit them without re-programming the ECU and they have no problems at all but in many other cases the opposite is true so it really is important to match the codes. In terms of the ability of the ECU to learn the driving still/engine characteristic this is really fine tuning and if your original ECU code is a little way off the replacement Injector code you are really in trouble. He also noted that the control system is very sophisticated so an injector that is showing a high correction may well be OK but is a response from the system to attempt to balance fluctuations in nominal crankshaft speed caused by a dodgy injector in another cylinder.


On Sunday I took the intake valve off the manifold to take a better look and at the inlet where the EGR blows in it was down to about 2thirds of the normal diameter. See pictures. So the manifold has to come off. Quote from the garage was 1200 euro to remove the old and fit a brand new one so it is definitely worth the effort to remove it myself and clean it in my friends ultrasonic tank. I decided to use up some holiday left over from last year and do this the week after next. I am not going to take any chances with the injectors so they will get a code, and although the Cambelt is not due for another 50,000km I have decided to do that again. I had wondered if it was a bit OTT but now you guys have mentioned the pulley on the end of the crankshaft it's a complete no brainer. As it happens when the motor is idling there is a regular noise coming from the crankshaft end as if the belt is hitting the housing but it disappears with a little bit of throttle. Could well be a bit of slop in the joint down there. If so I hope it is the pulley and woodruff key that sees most of the wear and not the slot in the camshaft itself.

So plan is now:

Tommorrow car goes back to garage to have injectors removed. Car starts immediately, no coolant water loss or emulsion in the tank/rocker cover but I have asked that whilst the injectors are out they do a compression test on each cylinder as a reality check before sending them to Bosch Service in Regensburg for clean, test and code generation at €36 each.

They will be back in the car and ECU recoded end of next week when I will sort the manifold, cambelt (and possibly the camshaft pulley!)


Manifold is a not the nicest job but I just need to keep reminding myself about the day I picked it up from a dealer as an unwanted part exchange. I had test driven BMW 320s which to be fair are a nice drive but in this case I would literally have paid 3 times the price for a boring beemer with the same mileage and age. So I am driving the car very carefully and smoothly home to my garage which has been cleared and cleaned ready to park her up and do the cambelt. I'm a bit paranoid about the fact that the clock is at 120,000km which corresponds to the time when the cambelt really should have already been changed. Somewhere down the the A3 I was poodling along at a sedate 120kph and start to overtake a long row of lorries going a bit slower up hill which stretches out into the distance before me. As if from nowhere (happens all the time on the autobahn here) a BMW is racing up behind. I start to give it a bit of gas but I'm thinking Cambelt Cambelt Cambelt . Then to my horror in the rear view mirror this guy is 10 metres off my bumper flashing his lights with the bright blue ones lighting up from his front bumper. I realize that this is an unmarked Police car and he is in a SERIOUS hurry so with about 10 trucks in front of me I panicked and just gunned it quickly through 4th and 5th..... and without any drama it felt like I was just catapulted by. Went straight back to 120 after that but the smile on my face just stayed there.

Will let you know what the outcome was when I'm done.


Cheers

Phil
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(Post Link) post #7 of 12 Old 23-02-16 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandlbarrett View Post
Have a read of this thread and do some searches yourself for setting injector (trim) values.

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...-you-help.html
Thanks
Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandlbarrett View Post
Note that some MES users report that you can only set injector values with KKL cable and ELM will not work but that might be due to canbus / non canbus.

Multiecuscan - View topic - URGENT! Set new Injector code not possible Alfa 159
Thanks - I was going to attempt this on my OBD2 but since I don't have the gear to do a cylinder compression check , see later post, it will be at the garage to pull the injectors out and then they will be retested by Bosch service here in Germany. The garage can refit then and enter the code into the ECU in minutes
Cheers
Phil
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As fas as I know, the crankshaft's material is harder than the pulley's.
This was the rest of mine's:

http://s14.postimg.org/o3bowd8ap/IMG...224_WA0002.jpg

Note that it was totally round, the mechanic did a test soldering that small dot, to see if the engine actually was ok before I ordered the new pulley.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dabyd64 View Post
As fas as I know, the crankshaft's material is harder than the pulley's.
This was the rest of mine's:

http://s14.postimg.org/o3bowd8ap/IMG...224_WA0002.jpg

Note that it was totally round, the mechanic did a test soldering that small dot, to see if the engine actually was ok before I ordered the new pulley.
Hard to believe that the cyclic load is so great that something as robust as that joint can fail. I would not be surprised if mine is going the same way bearing in mind the additional juddering it has had to cope with over the last few months. I already thought that that probably accelerated the demise of my DMF. Probably not a bad idea to assume the worst and order the pulley and key now I can always send them back if not needed.
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I don't think that it wears out, surely the nut was a bit loosen?
I can't understand it breaking by other cause, unless a damaged pulley too hard to move, but again it's strange that it breaks the pulley instead the belt
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Update - Problem resolved

Hi,
As a belated follow up to this, happy to report that the problem was resolved albeit at some expense. The 5 Injectors that had been tested and as a result three of them refurbished by a UK diesel injection specialist, were removed and sent to Bosch here in Germany for a re-test after the car was simply undriveable and the corrections were off scale. With the injectors out a compression test was done and all 5 cylinders were excellent.

The comprehensive 10 page report from the Bosch Test Stand machine showed that all 5 units were so bad that the rig could not generate new ecu codes for them. Bosch do an exchange scheme - your scrap injectors for Bosch factory re-manufactured units. these were €204 each but still cheaper then €400+ for brand new. The exchange units were duly fitted and new codes entered into the ecu. Full power is restored and the engine pulls smoothly across the rev range. This is despite the fact that the swirl valves are stuck due to a coked inlet manifold.

I have postponed changíng the cambelt and cleaning out the intake manifold to allow my wallet some time to recover and to make sure that nothing else is failing in the meantime before Í part with more cash. A bit gutted that I wasted 400 quid with the UK guys - won't be using them again.


Thanks to all who posted comments/suggestions on this topic.

Regards
Phil
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