Need engine logs opinion (injectors, map , maf) - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 51 Old 28-09-15 Thread Starter
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Need engine logs opinion (injectors, map , maf)

Hi all! I'm back to the alfa world
I've just done some graphs on my recently bought 166 JTD 2.4 20V mJet (185hp).
I know UK didn't had that engine on this wonderful car, it was a pity! However, it came with the 156, so technically is should be nearly the same.

She has lots of power, however, when cold, sometimes the engine struggles to start if I crank it too fast after putting the key on, it's like misfiring, it looks like it's gonna start, but it goes back again to cranking. It's not really cold here, maybe 18C, my 156 10V could start perfectly everyday,even on winter, and had bad glowplugs.
When this happens, it'll start on next try, and throw some white or grey smoke(I'm not sure about the colour, but smells like unburnt fuel, not oil )

However, this never happens if I let the key few seconds more after the glowplug lamp has turned off.
I totally discard the glowplugs, it's not cold here! And there are no errors stored on the ECU.

I guess some injectors are on its way out, as there's some black smoke on heavy acceleration.
I'm not really worried, just curious, I can live with it if it doesn't go worse
.
The engine at idle vibrates a bit, you can feel it on the steering wheel, but ain't shaking, just a feeling like having a powerful engine under the roof.

I made some logs:

Injectors at engine starting, slighly warm (after being 2 hours parked):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...66/startup.png


With engine hot, I found some strange ups and downs:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...66/weird_1.png

Less-zoomed graph:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...correction.png


And the air and boost readings (street driving)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...66/maf-map.png

I'm not sure about the injectors, but the desired/measured MAF and MAP readings are very close, looking good to me.
However that strange spike on the injector 5 looks weird!


How bad are those injectors? Any advice? I can make more log readings if needed.
I hope that giving some hard injector cleaner can cure it a bit, but I'm not an expert on injectors, my previous 156 didn't had this readings and never had to worry about (old 10V model).

I recently cleaned the EGR and MAP sensor, I didn't try again to crank it without waiting a bit, but the power feels the same, also still does the smoke cloud when booting.

Car history has been great, all maintenance done on Alfa Romeo dealer, even the battery is genuine Alfa!

Cheers
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(Post Link) post #2 of 51 Old 30-09-15 Thread Starter
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Does the 156's euro4 JTD engine have swirl valves?
Not sure on my 166 but I didn't see them, although I was told that it has them.
Regards
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glow plugs are used after starting for a while, don't discard them. at 18C it could be for 20-30 seconds. Check the battery is still strong enough to power the ECU, injectors, glow plugs and starter motor simultaneously while keeping the voltage above 11V. The key transponder must also be read and the code transmitted.

blank the egr and see if the smokey accellerations persist.
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Either cranking too soon, or waiting too much after the glowplug light has gone, will cause this on most times. But cranking 2 seconds after the light went off, works most of the times.
I'll check the glowplugs, also will try blanking the egr, although it looked pretty well.
Finding 166's info is a lot harder than the 156's.

The ECU doesn't show any error when I can't start the engine. It just keeps cranking and making white smoke, it'll eventually start, but I don't want to kill my starter motor or the battery.
Not key related, it's always recognized.
About the battery, yes, maybe it's related with, although the starter goes fast and is strong, the cabin lights almost blink on each piston movement.
I guess it's a bit worn, and can only give good current for few seconds ,then it drops and cause this.
Again, thanks for the help,
Cheers, David
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try a log whilst cranking
should be able to do volts , revs , total fuel, actual rail pressure , desired rail pressure, fuel regulator
my last episode with low battery was dropping to low 9v when cranking, revs and fuel pressure built slightly slower during cranking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sussexa View Post
try a log whilst cranking
should be able to do volts , revs , total fuel, actual rail pressure , desired rail pressure, fuel regulator
my last episode with low battery was dropping to low 9v when cranking, revs and fuel pressure built slightly slower during cranking
I'll check that too!
@sussexa, you have plenty knowledge about this... any thought about the injectors?
Thanks!
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try some strong injector cleaner, clean contacts on injector plug and injector electrical connectors, play with the plug and loom as logging to see if values alter while playing drastically.
don't discount glow plugs as far as im aware they do assist a faster start up as the modern lower compression doesn't help.
you say you clean the egr but I think trying a blank on the egr would be worthwhile as a test.
also the maf values look to be low to me , worth looking around turbo inlet pipe for splits after the maf, try unplugging the maf and log maf and boost, then reconnect and log again to compare logs.

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(Post Link) post #8 of 51 Old 12-10-15 Thread Starter
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I've been waiting few days, but no way, it keeps raining!
I don't have any place to put the car into, so I'll wait...wait more... Damn rain!
Thanks again for the hints!
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I finally had some time and good weatherx so I lifted the car to check it.
I've done 1200miles so far, and I've been carefully checking the problems and when they happen.
Oil consumption looks OK, it's at 4/5 of the max level, I don't remember how it was when I bought it but I think it was the same.
Coolant is still red and transparent, still sitting just over the "max" mark letters.

My engine is not so bad, but sometimes it struggles a bit to start and misfires the first seconds. However, it doesn't happen always, most of the times it does when it's been parked some hours and it's totally cold.
When the turbo is working, (when there's boost) then the car smokes a bit, visible like fog at night, and does specially more smoke at 1600-2000rpm when the turbo kicks in, although it keeps doing on the whole upper range.

So far I've cleaned almost all connectors on the engine, including map, maf, injectors, pump, fuel pressure sensor... also cleaned MAP, EGR, MAF and throttle body, the only really dirty part was the MAP.
The EGR blanking plates are coming from ebay...
This weekend I could lift the car and remove the turbo hoses, they were ok, but I found a crack on the vacuum pipe that comes out of the vaccum pump, replaced, no difference. The rest of vacuum pipes were ok.
This was the hose (already replaced in the pic):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...62/166/vac.jpg


Please have a look at this graphs...
Startup:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2/166/mes1.png

10 minutes later...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2/166/mes2.png

My car is a 166 JTD 20V CF4, doesn't have swirl flaps as far as I'm concerned, the inlet is like the 20V 156, metal inlet, nothing else ...

Regards

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did you replace the glow plugs? that could explain the misfires when cold. The plugs are supposed to glow after starting the engine.



check the intercooler is still good, no leaks from the end tanks etc...

forget about injector corrections for now, the engine will correct the injected amount also for external reasons, like low compression or low temperature... anything that could affect the combustion (and thus power) in that cilinder.
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Your injector correction values seem high +/- .Do you have access to data to see what their limit is?
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Oops, I had thought on it, but in the end I forgot to check the glow plugs.
I was putting the first bits back into the car when the sky turned lead grey, and few rain drops started to fall, so I mounted the rest of the car at full speed .
When I finished, the clouds had gone and the sun was shinning again. Funny
The intercooler seems a pita to remove.
Tried from above, there wasn't enought free space, from below it was impossible because the chassis, engine mounts and other parts where everywhere, I could't even insert my hand between the gaps, I hardly could hold the hose clamp with a finger to loosen it up with the screwdriver.
I think the easiest way will be removing the cooling radiator, I tried loosening it, but in the end it still needed 2 or 3 inches more to allow removing the intercooler.
I visually checked it and there were no cracks or stone chips, pretty clean and good. Anyway, I'll try again soon, I think finding the correct position loosening the radiador will work.
It was worse on my 156, I had to remove the front bumper.
I'll check the glowplugs later, should be read between 2-3 ohms, right?

Thanks!

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no, the glowplugs should be about a 0.5 ohm
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Today was colder and it has struggled to start on the morning, after the lunch and also at night coming back from work.
The strange thing is that it'll start much worse if I wait 5 seconds after the glow plug light has gone, instead 1-2 seconds.
Smells like weak glow plugs? Still look strange to me, being still warm weather, around 12-15 C
So low resistance? It'll be hard to measure with the multimeter, It'll read 0 or 1 ohm, so as long as it keeps in that range it'll be ok then
Thanks!

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Well, I DO have the damn swirl flaps!
The 166 JTD 2.4 in 136, 140, 150 and 175hp (20v) versions don't have them, only the 185hp version, because when it came out had to comply euro4 emissions.
It has different injectors and ECU, same as the 159's, so basically it's the same engine as the 159 210hp with also GT2256V.

The actuator arm had fall between the glow plugs, and the flap rods were covered by a black oily coat, also was the rest of the camshaft cover, so I didn't see it the first time.

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All glow plugs are okay, between 0.6-0.7ohm.
Today I put the EGR blanking plates, and what a plates, they're 4mm thick
That way the egr can be removed and throwed away.
IMG-20151114-WA0004~01.jpg

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Finally I could remove the intercooler. Had to push the radiator and filter box to the sides, and while doing so, pull with my other hand.
I took a while, but in the end it came out .
Man, that IC is way bigger than my 156's was!

Anyway, I cleaned it thoroughly, it had a nice oily paste coat outside, inside just a bit of oil but nothing serious.
Did a leakage test with the tap water pressure, nothing came out, I guess ok?
So I put everything back into its place.
Also, as the swirl flaps were unconnected, I set all to max open. (Repair kit is on the way)

After fitting it back, I noticed that the air flush is more audible now - maybe due EGR blank?
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=HC2thJOGOuc
(that smoke is steam, the IC was still wet outside)

Drove back to home today. Slightly more power on low revs, before the turbo kicks in, on the mid and high end it keeps almost the same.

And... Almost no smoke! It was dark when I was driving, so I could see very well the smoke thanks to the rear car's headlights.
Before, every time I reached 1600rpm (turbo kicks in), it would make a very visible fog, and it was much more if I pushed the gas to the floor (tropical storm dark cloud coming! ).
Now...No smoke even flooring the pedal!
While I was in a Stop, I decided to test it once for all, the hardest way. Once I could pass, I pushed the gas to the floor, and did 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears shifting at 4000.
And almost nothing, just a very weak fog behind, could be the just the tires, or the exhaust, anyway, almost no smoke on that condition, so I'm pretty happy.

I notice some torque variations at 2000-2200rpm, when the turbo kicks, it push very hard , then it drops a bit, and the it comes back slowly but it never reached that initial torque again.
I read that the 159's have some torque spikes which can be removed by remapping, are that spikes what I'm feeling?

Regards,
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20151114_182204.jpg (132.2 KB, 15 views)

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If the transponder failed, shouldn't it log the problem? My 156 did.
As I say, zero errors in the ecu. Well, one now, EGR blanked
I think the battery is OK, last weekend I dumped the ECU data and that meant 45 minutes with the battery on.
Also I forgot to close the boot, was almost 2 hours with the light on.
But it ran at first try. Also last 3 days, perfect start.
Don't know if blanking the EGR made it better.
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Well, after 2 days of city driving, still doing 1% of the smoke it did before
Definitely egr related I guess. Although it was ok internally, and did smooth movement, maybe the actuator wasn't.
At least now I can confirm that the black smoke wasn't an injector overfuelling.
Now searching the swirl flap repair kit. Damnit, they only sell then as 4-piece pack! I'll have to buy 8 to repair 5
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Some updates:
I received the swirl flap repair kit from i6automotive, had to buy two kits for my 5 pot, anyway was really cheap, 24 including shipping!
The kit only cost 10 so it's a third part of what I'be seen on ebay.

Looks good :

http://s10.postimg.org/skouvh59k/20151125_144930.jpg

http://s10.postimg.org/s5dl2gjc8/20151125_145053.jpg


Had hard moments trying to do sucessful pics thanks to that evil b*tch trying to hunt the flap bar every 5 seconds...
http://s12.postimg.org/x7u74w0ho/20151125_151111_1.jpg

The bush, once mounted onto the flap, looks weak and it seems that it will fall on the first road bump, but in the end it sticks pretty well, have done 200 miles and still holding on its place.
Small video of it moving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P313OOEjUt4
Zero drilling or adjusting, just break the old plastic bushes, put the new ones and tighten the screws. And pray to get it back on the car in less than an hour, it's really tricky to adjust and clamp all the bushes.


Apart of that, I cleaned the turbo vacuum valve, the small filter it has on the back was a bit oily and cleaned it too.
Just for testing, I took a ride with the maf disconnected.
Surprisingly, the car performed better, specially and mid and high range.
I had cleaned it few weeks ago without noticeable difference.
So, it looks like a tired maf? Time to get another?

Also the HIDs are a joke, they give less light than my last birthday cake candles!
And I have fitted new osram xenarc cool blue intense, felt almost no diference.
After some reading. ..ouch! Facelifted 166 has Valeo D1s projector like some audis and saabs, known for being the worst crap ever done on the hid lighting world, poor pattern when new and also the reflective coat burns after some time, becoming what I do have now .
Fortunately there''s a repair kit for this, check this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm-Q8qQDi9g


New maf and new projectors, the flying money game starts again ..Hope to not find much more!

Cheers

Last edited by DavidAlfa166; 29-11-15 at 22:00.
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Happy new year!

Just for discarding current and future possible problem sources, I fitted a new Bosch MAF, Pierburg boost control valve, and new boost sensor is on the way.
Just in case, I removed the battery for 1 hour, to reset the ecu. Although I didn't feel any noticeable difference.
The older maf measured 480mg/i at idle, while the new reads 500-510. Maybe caused just due the cold weather.
Also replaced the oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter and cabine air filter.

On full throttle, the boost gets around 1.3bar, and the maf reads ~1100mg/i.
EGR is still fully blanked, no boost leaks, neither vacuum leaks.
Swirl flaps still moving ok thanks to the repair kit.
But I think the air is a bit low? Without the maf I feel the car a bit better, but the maf is 100% genuine from bosch.
So...should I think on clogged intake manifold?



I made a (maybe useless) test. I took a small hose and placed it over each injector, then heard throught it.
Injector 1 and 5 made a lot more ticking noise than the rest. Does that mean anything?

Also, my car has lambda sensor, like the 159's. I have no idea how it works on a diesel, but since the car made smoke when it had the boost leak, I don't understand its function.
Shouldn't it measure the exhaust gasses, so the ecu checks if the mix is too lean or rich?
Cheers everyone.

Last edited by DavidAlfa166; 11-01-16 at 02:04.
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Up! som help please
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Injector ticking is not a good sign. Mines r doing the same show maybe they need repair or cleaning...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selespeed0603 View Post
Injector ticking is not a good sign. Mines r doing the same show maybe they need repair or cleaning...
Sent from my ajfon
I thought that some ticking was normal, the injector is opening and closing at extreme pressures. I meant ticking ticking, not clapping or knocking.
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Well ok, i m not an expert and i obviously confused ticking with knocking. Mines are knocking


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